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RiderBacks
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So I've decided to join the memdeck crowd. Today. First ten cards of the Aronson Stack memorized (in both directions). On sub-one-second recall in both directions. Estimated time spent practicing? One hour, broken up into four fifteen minute periods. Let's see how fast I can get this done. I'll track my progress here. I predict two weeks. I hope to high heaven this doesn't take me a month, but if it does, I won't shoot myself. It's not as easy as I expected, but I'm opting for the brute force rote memorization method. Ten down, fourty-two to go!
doriancaudal
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On Oct 8, 2015, RiderBacks wrote:
I'll track my progress here.


Why ?
Hands-off ACAAN - freely chosen card and number : http://doriancaudal.wix.com/miracaan
The_MetalMaster
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I can't imagine going back and doing it rote memorization lol. I thought Simon's mneumonics in Bound To Please resulted in me learing it quite quick. Less than a week if I remember right. However, knowing it cold and on the spot when required for "Two Beginnings" takes a little time if you perform it quite often.
RiderBacks
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On Oct 8, 2015, doriancaudal wrote: Why?


Why not? But seriously, it's much more motivating. Now that I've said I'll do it, I have to. And fast!
RiderBacks
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On Oct 8, 2015, The_MetalMaster wrote:
I can't imagine going back and doing it rote memorization lol. I thought Simon's mneumonics in Bound To Please resulted in me learing it quite quick. Less than a week if I remember right. However, knowing it cold and on the spot when required for "Two Beginnings" takes a little time if you perform it quite often.


I'm pretty good with rote memorization when I want to be. I figure (perhaps incorrectly) that if I do it this way, I'll have it down cold faster (and I save the time learning a mnemonic system would take!) A mnemonic system would no doubt give me the order quicker, but I'd have to move through various associations to recover it (at least initially), and I want the card/number associations to be instantaneous. I'm assuming those who go with a mnemonic system probably eventually abandon that once they've got the instantaneous associations down, so I figured I'd just aim directly for that point.

But one week is impressive! I'm taking the day off. Second set of ten tomorrow. It'll probably be a bit more than a week for me, but if I don't beat three weeks, I'll publicly admit to being a lazy gimp.
RiderBacks
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And 1-20 are done. Second set of ten finished on time as promised! Forwards and backwards with no errors. I'm still a few seconds slow on a couple of them though, so that's no good. (Yes, currently it looks like I'm having a mini-seizure when trying to recall a couple of the cards.) Total estimated time spent so far? One hour spread across three days. I aim to add six more tomorrow to bring myself up to 50%, and then stick with that for a day or two until I have cemented instantaneous forward/backward recall before moving on.

I do not think I would enjoy doing this in an extended session, though it'd probably be possible. Spreading the memorization across a few days seems to be working well without causing any burnout. With almost half the deck done in three days and less than two hours, I'm optimistic that I'll meet my initial target time of two weeks. But if it takes three or four, that's also fine.. I'm using flashcards primarily along with the occasional check at memodeck.com. While this is not quite as easy as I thought it would be, it's still not that difficult.

The number cards are definitely the worst. Oh, that 10 is an 11? Fun stuff.
Bobby Forbes
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Congrats on learning a men stack. You'll find you can really fry the "smart guys" using this. If doing it by rote memory you may want to try another strategy as well. Learning the stack in order is great, but sometimes doing it that way may cause you to recall a sequence of cards in order to see which one is next. For example. When someone says 29 you may tend to remember 26,
27, 28 then 29. It adds a few extra seconds into your recall. You may immediately go to a card that was easier for you to recall then count from that one. Does that make sense? Maybe mix it up a bit and learn the position of all the Aces, then all the 2's, then 3's, etc. That way your memory is in no particular order. It forces you to remember card positions with the actual card at that position. it prevents you from reciting the sequence of cards leading up to the one your trying to remember.
I personally used mnemonics. After a short while you don't need the associations anymore and it becomes automatic. If however you have a brain fart, you can just refer back to the mnemonic for that card. Using rote memory you have nothing to fall back on unless you have a crib nearby on the card box or joker. Just note it is beneficial to learn it in order too because some effects require reciting groups of cards in order. Have fun!
RiderBacks
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On Oct 11, 2015, Bobby Forbes wrote: Learning the stack in order is great, but sometimes doing it that way may cause you to recall a sequence of cards in order to see which one is next. For example. When someone says 29 you may tend to remember 26, 27, 28 then 29. It adds a few extra seconds into your recall. You may immediately go to a card that was easier for you to recall then count from that one. Does that make sense?


This is absolutely correct. There are still two locations in the first twenty-six (I added six more to make it a nice 50%) where I do this. The 2D//KD/7D sequence and the 8S/3D/7H sequence. All the other cards have been associated perfectly, however. That I'm still doing this (after four days of mem work) doesn't bother me. In fact, I like it. For it lets me practice without having the cards on me. And at some point in the near future, I expect those last six cards to fall into a natural association. (For some reason, it took three days for the 5H to fall naturally into association with the 12. What finally did it? Repeatedly focusing on the card I was missing. And actually, the KD fell into natural association with the 14 yesterday, so I'm really only lacking perfect association for five of the first twenty-six.) Since 50% is a nice even stopping point, I'm really going to sit here now for a few days and try to bring those last five cards into flawless association.

Quote:
On Oct 11, 2015, Bobby Forbes wrote: Maybe mix it up a bit and learn the position of all the Aces, then all the 2's, then 3's, etc. That way your memory is in no particular order. It forces you to remember card positions with the actual card at that position. it prevents you from reciting the sequence of cards leading up to the one your trying to remember.


My rote memorization method is already giving me this. For example, all the Aces occur within the first twenty-six cards, and I automatically know all their positions. Of course, Aces are more conspicuous, and I'd have to do a bit of thinking to tell you how many 3's occur within the first twenty-six. So I'll definitely work on this with the other indices, but only after I have the whole deck down. I also plan on working on "next card" and "prior card" memorization after that, without the need for having to move through numbers. And I think "next card" and "prior card" memorization will benefit from having knowing the deck in order.

Quote:
If however you have a brain fart, you can just refer back to the mnemonic for that card. Using rote memory you have nothing to fall back on unless you have a crib nearby on the card box or joker.


A very good point some may wish to consider. For this, I trust I won't brain fart once I have it. On other matters, I cannot rely so easily on my memory. It's very odd what comes easy and what comes hard. It is astonishing how fast I will forget the method for a trick, for example. God knows how many times I have Elmsley counted the third twist in Twisting the Aces... Even stupidly simple tricks (as stupidly simple as Gemini Twins) sometimes require me to think about how to reconstruct the trick before proceeding. My brain is a ****ed up place and does something things great and others things poorly.
Kjellstrom
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The easy way to learn a memorized stack: Joyal Stack (ebook):

http://www.joyalstack.com/magic-books/name/joyal-martin
RiderBacks
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On Oct 11, 2015, Kjellstrom wrote:
The easy way to learn a memorized stack: Joyal Stack (ebook):

http://www.joyalstack.com/magic-books/name/joyal-martin


Personally, I have no need for a rule-based approach, though some may find that helpful. I picked the Aronson stack for a few reasons. First, it seems to have very good English support. That is, there's a lot of material published on it in English. (Going to have to pick up some of Simon's books, of course. Those are now on my list of things to buy!) Second, it spreads or fans favorably. Third, it has a lot of built in effect set-ups. Now I'm not very familiar with the Joyal Stack, but I suspect that a rule-based stack is going to give up on most built in effect set-ups. After all, the stack isn't primarily designed around the effects, it's first and foremost designed around the rules. (While one might come up with rules that also permit effects, it seems likely that there will be more limitations here, and especially so the simpler the rules are.) So if one doesn't need memory help, and doesn't speak Spanish, I think the Aronson Stack is probably one of the better ones to commit to memory. And of course, you only have to do it once. To paraphrase someone, "The more pain, the more gain."
landmark
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The 2D//KD/7D sequence...


The thing to remember about that sequence is that they are part of a built-in spelling sequence:
Two of Diamonds spells with 13 letters, KD with 14, 7D with 15. If you know that, you'll always know their relative order: two, King seven, that is, the shortest name, medium name, longest name.
RiderBacks
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On Oct 11, 2015, landmark wrote: The thing to remember about that sequence is that they are part of a built-in spelling sequence:
Two of Diamonds spells with 13 letters, KD with 14, 7D with 15. If you know that, you'll always know their relative order: two, King seven, that is, the shortest name, medium name, longest name.


I should have already realized that! Thanks for the pro-tip. I actually have the 2/K/7 order memorized, and know the 7 is the 15. So I count down from 15 for the the 2. But this tip should probably help me cement the card-to-number and number-to-card association faster. And it will certainly help with recall if I forget something! Awesome tip. Thanks!
RiderBacks
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I'm parking on the first twenty-six cards for another few days. I want to get this half-stack thoroughly cemented in memory before moving on. I think I'll be happy giving the first half of the deck a full week. The second half will be incoming soon, but patience is a virtue, and getting this down will take far less time than working on various sleights. I figure that slow and steady wins the race.
mtgoldstein
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There is a great app to help with randomized game matching. Sorry I'm not explaining it well. Check out The Ultimate Aronson Trainer in the App Store. There's one for the Tamariz stack too
RiderBacks
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Alright. Setting the first twenty-six aside. On to the next twenty-six tomorrow. I have already used the initial stack to perform some awesome stuff. After a few routines, I decided to play the 50% chance of asking a spectator to pick a card. If they didn't pick a card which occurs in the first half of the stack, I'd have been forced to modify. But fair enough. What card did the spectator pick? The JS. From there, **** went down. I gave up the stack, shuffled like mad (controlling the top card, of course), and blew a mind. It was great fun. This experience leads me to believe that a stack with some of the most commonly selected cards built into it for easy access would be a great stack. Just some thoughts.
RiderBacks
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I think that after I finish the Aronson Stack I'll get the Tamariz Stack down too. But as promised, I today added five more cards to my memorization of the Aronson Stack. We're ten days in and up to thirty-one cards. I confess that I took a break and didn't pay attention to this for the past five or six days. Work on other effects occupied my time. Still, I won't subtract the near week I ignored this from my revised goal of something like three weeks. I aim to finish within the next ten days, but we'll see what happens!
pnielan
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No point in learning a second stack until you've performed many, many times with the the first stack (in my opinion). Aronson, Tamariz both great, but many of the best memdeck effects are stack independent. Being able to write down (or recite)the cards in order without a reference or write down (recite) the stack numbers for each card without a reference is one thing. But performing some of the best tricks with the stack requires mastery far beyond that. I've read that a few use multiple stacks at the same time. My feeling is that under performing pressure (and after a glass of wine), that I might inadvertently use the wrong stack.. I'm on my second stack now, but I've tried to actively forget the first stack I learned. Speed and your thinking not showing with one stack is way better than half-mastery of two (again, in my opinion).

One test on the way to mastery: how long does it take you, starting from a shuffled deck, and keeping the cards in your hands (no table), to put the deck in memdeck order. Under 3 minutes is pretty good. Over 5 minutes means you are spending too much time to much time thinking about what comes next. A good metric is to use the same mechanics (in your hands) to put a deck in new deck order. If your memdeck time comes close, then you are moving towards mastery.
pnielan
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No point in learning a second stack until you've performed many, many times with the the first stack (in my opinion). Aronson, Tamariz both great, but many of the best memdeck effects are stack independent. Being able to write down (or recite)the cards in order without a reference or write down (recite) the stack numbers for each card without a reference is one thing. But performing some of the best tricks with the stack requires mastery far beyond that. I've read that a few use multiple stacks at the same time. My feeling is that under performing pressure (and after a glass of wine), that I might inadvertently use the wrong stack.. I'm on my second stack now, but I've tried to actively forget the first stack I learned. Speed and your thinking not showing with one stack is way better than half-mastery of two (again, in my opinion).

One test on the way to mastery: how long does it take you, starting from a shuffled deck, and keeping the cards in your hands (no table), to put the deck in memdeck order. Under 3 minutes is pretty good. Over 5 minutes means you are spending too much time to much time thinking about what comes next. A good metric is to use the same mechanics (in your hands) to put a deck in new deck order. If your memdeck time comes close, then you are moving towards mastery.
RiderBacks
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On Oct 20, 2015, pnielan wrote: One test on the way to mastery: how long does it take you, starting from a shuffled deck, and keeping the cards in your hands (no table), to put the deck in memdeck order. Under 3 minutes is pretty good. Over 5 minutes means you are spending too much time to much time thinking about what comes next. A good metric is to use the same mechanics (in your hands) to put a deck in new deck order. If your memdeck time comes close, then you are moving towards mastery.


That's a great idea! Will use it! +1 for the tip!
alicauchy
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On Oct 20, 2015, pnielan wrote:
One test on the way to mastery: how long does it take you, starting from a shuffled deck, and keeping the cards in your hands (no table), to put the deck in memdeck order. Under 3 minutes is pretty good. Over 5 minutes means you are spending too much time to much time thinking about what comes next. A good metric is to use the same mechanics (in your hands) to put a deck in new deck order. If your memdeck time comes close, then you are moving towards mastery.


Nice exercise. I read the "between the fingers" method in Mnemonica, but never tried to clock myself.

Hey, 2'43" in the first try. Not that bad.

But I feel that it is still too much time !!!
So much to do, so little time . . .
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