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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Danny Kazam said:
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If one believes selling used dvd's is immoral, it is their job to live according to it, and not call anyone who doesn't agree with them immoral simply because they don't like what someone did. That is wrong, I think. If someone doesn't agree that profiting off another person's work to the disadvantage of that person is wrong, then I judge them as being not trustable. If they don't value other's property and condone theft--they aren't sleeping at my house. If magicians do something dishonest or unfair to their brothers, I would say they should be called out. I would want all my friends and fellow magicians to know the facts, and know not to trust them. It could affect how magic clubs and conventions feel about the miscreant. Doing right or wrong is a moral decision, but how you treat your fellows is by the group's ethics. If you violate the group's trust, then they will hold it against you. Such things can last a long time. It isn't like offending a moral prude with different standards, it is like offending a friend. You can lose a friend by offending him even if what you did wasn't illegal or immoral. You crossed a line and showed disrespect. The magic community works like that. We can't sue. But we remember. Sometimes in print. Sometimes for a long time. |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
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On Dec 18, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: Then I simply ask you provide legal document that supports your claim. What countries are you even referring to? I looked up the law for USA and Canada and you are absolutely wrong about your assumptions. You might want to do some fact checking before you continue giving incomplete and innacurate legal information. There is a specifc law that gives the buyers of books, dvds, etc full owner rights to resell. Since you are a lawyer you should not only know the name of the law but what it means for consumer rights.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
It is not legal to circumvent any copy-protected DVD or CD, even for your own backup. You can sell the original, but to make a backup copy is illegal, because you have to overcome DRM protection.
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Mr Salk Special user Tied to 568 Posts |
The digitization and easy dissemination of art and intellectual property is still in its infancy.
Pure binary just doesn't elicit those warm feelings of protection.
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
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On Dec 22, 2015, Pop Haydn wrote: This is correct. However, not all dvd's and cd producers spend extra money for the software. It is the circumventing of the DRM security that is illegal, not the backing up of dvd's onto a hard drive. I have yet to buy a magic instructional dvd that has DRM security. In the USA there is the "First sale doctrine" which contradicts masterminds earlier comments. Perhaps that's where some get confused about the laws. There is much more to it than just saying copying dvd's onto a hard drive is illegal. That statement alone is absolutely incorrect. But, when we bring in DRM security, we are now talking about the legal protection of DRM security, not backing up of dvd's. The legal protection of DRM security prohibits circumventing.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
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On Dec 22, 2015, Danny Kazam wrote: Most magic DVD producers, such as myself, find that adding DRM security has certain problems of its own for the producer and the end user. That is why in our community we rely more on the fair play of our brother magicians than on legal recourse. If someone is found out to be say, buying DVDs and then reselling them while keeping a copy, the community would consider that person unreliable and untrustworthy, regardless of his legal position. Does it pass the smell test? Is it a fair way to treat the creators? |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Dec 8, 2015, Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse wrote: I only buy dvds from creators myself. However, I rarely buy dvds. I've never thought of your logic before though. I do buy used books though. They are not easily copyable. You can do what you want, but this sounds hilariously silly to me. You don't buy used DVD's but you buy used books? Say what, again? I can copy any book I want for free at the library. It has a book scanner. You can build yourself a very nice, professional book scanner pretty inexpensively, if you want to. See here: http://www.diybookscanner.org/ In the near future, every phone will be able to scan a book almost instantly. I have no idea why you think it's difficult to convert a book to a PDF. That's crazy talk. I digitized one of my professor's books ten years ago for him for $50 in twenty minutes (though it cost the book its spine). Why did I have to it for him? He's old and technologically illiterate. It sounds like you might not be keeping up with tech either. Now that you've reminded me, I need to digitize my last book purchase. Yes, it was new, not used. Interestingly, I found a complete steal on a new copy of the book while all the used copies are going for two to ten times the price of the used versions! Had the used versions been cheaper, I would have opted for them. If I wanted to, I could immediately resell this book for a massive profit. (Someone needs to up their prices!) Of course, I'll keep it, because I like hard copies. But I also like to have all my books with me wherever I go. Maybe I'll digitize it tomorrow (on Christmas Day!) just to spite you. ;-) The point of all this is that you can't justify, with anything remotely resembling pure reason, buying used books but not buying used DVDs. That position is simply not tenable, from the standpoint of rationality. (And no, I won't tell you what the book I bought is, or which dealer I purchased it from. I think he probably has a few more copies, and if I disclosed this information, someone would buy them all for resale at a higher price!] |
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Overworked New user 45 Posts |
Let me add a new wrinkle. And this one is directed at Pop Haydn.
so I recently bought a number of things from Pop's site. (By the way, his Chicago Surprise instructional video is probably one of the best teaching videos I've seen). And I decided to buy the download of the School for Scoundrels 3 Card Monte video which comes with a downloadable pdf of the complete 3 Card Monte book. Now, I happen to own the 3 Card Monte book. Is it morally right for me to sell the book now that I have a PDF that I received for free as a result of buying a downloadable video? This issues have gotten thornier and thornier. |
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
Overworked,
Sometimes what is legally ok isn't morally ok. I do occasionally sell some DVDs or books. However, my view is that if I am going to be using the material that I learned from those books or DVDs, I should hold onto the material. I only sell stuff that I know I will never use. If I later decide to use it, I will re-purchase it. I might try to find it used, but I will purchase it. P.S. While everyone has a different set of moral values, I think that the vast majority of people would generally agree with Pop Haydn's general views expressed in this thread. Think it all the way through. If you want to enjoy the creations of others, you have to exercise respect. If you are uncertain as to what to do, I would suggest erring on the side that supports the creator. Does that help? KJ |
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
BTW, when I say "use", I mean use it in any way. I don't perform anyone else's routine as they present it. So, by "Use", I also mean that I use it for inspiration for my own routines.
KJ |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
There lies the problem. Assuming the majority of magicians and hobbyists agree that it's immoral without providing anything to back it up. Just because we share an interrest in the art of magic doesn't make us a community. Many of us come from different walks of live with different life experiences. It takes more than one shared interrest to be a community.
Penquin gives me a download to practically every dvd I bought from them at no extra cost. And, from most people I talk to admit to downloading a copy onto the harddrive. There is a legal way to protect dvd copying, but Pop points out it's too much trouble. So, lets dictate using bullying tactics to try and get others to conform to a set of morals that only benifits the producers of dvd's and throw consumer rights out the window. This to me is immoral.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
I say we should just quit making the DVDs. There is much less money in them every year.
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
This is not about bullying. This is about common sense. If you are going to use someone else's material, just pay honestly for it. If you want to make 13 copies strictly for your own use, go ahead. If you sell a copy or an original after keeping a copy, that is NOT OK. Isn't that simple enough?
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Bullying is the new pc way to stop anyone from disagreeing with you and ironically enough it is in and of itself a bullying tactic.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Is it bullying to ask people to treat the creators with respect? To treat them the way you would want to be treated if the 100s of hours and expense to develop new magic and share it were yours?
If people in our community don't conform to a common code, the community will break down. Producers won't produce if there is no profit in it. |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
This isn't about respect, it's about claiming that what someone has done is immoral because they don't like it. When pressed for answers, the responses as to why it is immorally wrong was not only illogical but as we found out hypocritical too. Now, the claim is, it's about respect. Do you have any respect for me Pop Haydin, or have you made preconceived opinions about my character?
Since I have purchased a few of your routines do you respect me the same way you want to be respected? WE have never met, and I know nothing about you other than I liked one of your routines. I thought it would work well in my show after I personalized it and made it my own. I respect the art of magic, and I respect it in many ways, but when it comes to business and dealing with vendor's, dealers, online magic shops, that's a different ball game. I respected your routine enough to pay you money for it, even though I knew the moves associated with it. And, even though my routine is different than yours now, I still have the instructions your wife sent me. I have no intentions of every selling it, but not because I respect you, but because I respect the routine you created. I'm sure you don't have any clue of the hours of hard work I have to put in week after week just to be able to afford to buy magic, but why should you? I'd be suspicious if you said you did. lol I buy very little magic anymore. I either build my own props, or create my own routines. I have bought many dvd's from Penquin Magic, and they gave me free downloads in my account for most of them. I have sold or traded with other members here on the Café. Should I go and check to see if there was a download as well and give the download away with the sale? Maybe I still have the downloads to some dvd's I traded or sold. Even though I have never resold an ebook, books, dvd, vhs, and audio cassetes copied from the originals, I have borrowed magic books from the Library, continued to perform a trick or routine after selling the instructions. In fairness, I also threw out my pancake mix recipe once I memorized it. Should I stop making pancakes? The question is can you explain why it's immoral without sounding hypocritical?
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
It is bullying when the agenda is biased and benefits just magic dealers, creator's, producer's of magic, while systematically showing disrespect by disregarding and ignoring the legal rights of consumers. Yes Pop Haydon...respect is a two way street.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Jan 8, 2016, Pop Haydn wrote: Absolutely. But those who chose to do what they want never seem to care.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
What magicians code of ethics find it immoral?
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I find the way you bully everyone who disagrees with you ironic.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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