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tmcbls Regular user 103 Posts |
Hello,
I really should know this. I write to ask if anyone believes that using completely fair dice on a completely fair craps table if there are controls, e.g., hold the dice to make a "v," that can change the outcome of what a casino would deem a fair (random) throw. Just to ensure my question is clear... no loads, no switches, no nothing. In fact, let's assume that the Boxman just checked the dice. You are given the dice. You throw the dice so it is random (and I believe this means they bounce off the end of the table). Everything is clean and nice. Said succinctly, fair dice, random throw, somehow you set the dice to land in some non-random way. Is this possible? Sorry for the question if it's off topic... thank you to those that answer. |
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
This has been covered pretty extensively on other threads. You might want to do a search but the short answer is NO!
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tmcbls Regular user 103 Posts |
How embarrassing. I thank you honestly.
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Expertmagician Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Hi Cagliostro,
I hate to disagree with your "the all and power Oz: .... But, I have seen Steve Forte control honest dice on an ungimmicked table. Sure they are percentage shots....but, they work well in the right hands.
Long Island,
New York |
JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Cag is correct for the most part. There are a handful of people that can do some "special" things with fair dice on a casino craps table under the right circumstances, but they are few and far between. The vast majority of the time these people do not hit the back wall intentionally with one of the cubes, although the cube being controlled may occasionally brush up against the back wall and still hold up.
But the "dice setters" and other Frank Scoblete-style "controlled rollers" are delusional. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2015, Expertmagician wrote: I agree with Jason on this. Throwing both dice to hit the table and then bouncing off the backboard on a regulation craps table and then coming to rest on the table, the result is random. Of course there are "shots" one can do, but they do not conform to the conditions given. The Power of Oz has nothing to do with it. It comes under the definition of "physics" and reality. What is considered "dice setting" or "Rhythm" shooting is a scam. The promoters of this nonsense offer a money back guaranteed if you are not satisfied with their product which keeps them out of court or going to jail. Yes I have seen a video of Forte doing a "shot" also, but it does not conform to the conditions of a legitimate roll which is what the original question asked and posed. Even better than Forte, I have seen pros shoot shots under fire in the casinos but once again, it is not magic. It is a "shot" and to get it on, you need more that just the "shot." Of course, private games are another story and much more can be done but once again that is not what the original question asked. In private games, I have seen spin shots done against two sideboards and a backboard, under fire, but that cannot be done on a regulation craps table. There are Whip Shots, Greek Shots and other kinds of shots, including shots from a cup that can be done in private games. That is nothing new but that is not what we are talking about. Stanford Wong believed in this for a while and then convinced himself it did not work. Even the "master" DOC (your term) thought that fair dice could be controlled on a regulation craps table because he saw a video of someone claiming to control the dice with "Dice Setting," that is until he finally got wised up the video was a scam. |
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Once upon a time, before the industrial revolution, there was no fair dice for they lacked the machinery to make them and because there was no fair dice and the like then there was no theory of probability and gambling was in the lap of the gods and in the hands of those who owned the dice and knew them. Now it occurs to me that the thing to do is not just switch in loaded dice or the like but also switch the machinery that tests them for machinery that makes them look fair. My question is who tests the dice in a casino and what is craps?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
Tony45 Veteran user 384 Posts |
Tommy, it used to be every shift the dice would be changed and put in new ones, the pit boss would test dice.
Now, its once a day usually on grave yard,they would test the dice for the day for yesterday and put in new dice. I told some old stories from a few years ago, but I don't waste my time. I worked the dice in NY in and that's how I "broke" in, lol. |
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 16, 2015, tommy wrote: I still remember the time before the Industrial Revolution. Yup...those were the good old days. As far as testing the dice as Tony45 mentioned, that is relatively easy and is done every day. |
Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
Shots that don't hit the rubber are kind of pointless in terms of describing them in any way, shape, or form as "controlled".
Games have rules, rules impact the game (that's why they're there), and in Craps, the rules call for the dice to bounce off the rubber. Throwing dice and not hitting the rubber is like dropping the ball directly into the number you've bet on once the wheel has stopped in Roulette. Scooting dice down the table and not hitting the rubber while maintaining some semblance of control is impressive, but it's also pointless outside of a demo. So to the O.P., echoing what has been said above, "No you can't set the dice to control a fair throw in Craps". |
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Then all we need to do is con the pit boss into thinking we have kidnapped his cat and if he does not switch the dice then the cat dies.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 16, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote: Artie, That's not entirely true. Sit and watch a crap game in Vegas for an hour on a busy night and you may see several rolls not hit the back wall. The tourists fail to hit the wall all the time with one or both dice. Sometimes an obstruction (a bet or the puck) impedes the roll - other times the throe is just soft and the crew just doesn't care and they don't say anything. If it becomes painfully obvious that someone isn't trying to hit the back wall then they might say something, but that's not the same as "no rolling" someone just because one die came up a few inches short of the wall. A shooter can also throw the dice extremely hard a few times when they first come up to the table in the hopes of sending a die off the table entirely. The crew may even caution the shooter to throw the dice a little easier after having to chase a die 20 feet off the table. You've just been given permission to throw the dice gently. It's a complex world and thinking that very specific controlled shots don't exist just because you're supposed to hit the wall is fallacious. In the hands of a few specialists they very much do exist and the only thing that matters is whether or not they're making money with them - not whether they're conforming to every little rule the casinos want them to abide by. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
I don't disagree with you Jason, but I don't quite agree 100% with you either
In general terms, I wasn't making reference to what the crew might let a player get away with, only what the crew would require if blatantly asked by the player "do I have to hit the back wall like the rules say I do?" Even with permission to "throw softly", if pressed one will also be told to hit the back wall. So, if a player is playing by the rules, and if that player hits the back wall as required by the rules, a player can't control the shot. But playing all the beneficial gimmes a crew might give a player, playing in a grey areas, where the dice can be controlled while sliding down the felt and not hitting anything, then "yes" we've seen folks (friends of yours even) control shots playing outside the general rules of Craps. |
Expertmagician Inner circle 2478 Posts |
I missed the "hit the wall" condition in the original post.
I was thinking ungimmicked dice rolled on a dice table....for a gambling demo (in that case, you don't have to hit the wall ) I seem to recall a percentage shot called the Greek roll which trapped one of the cubes under the top cube and the wall and table. However, casinos foiled that by angling the corner where wall meets the table. So, to my knowledge the Greek roll is no longer effective.
Long Island,
New York |
JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Artie,
I think we mostly agree. I only submit that I believe that under ideal circumstances (including having a lax crew not enforcing their own rules properly - however you get there), controlled shots are possible that don't violate the laws of most states including Nevada. That excludes sliding one or more cubes down the layout, but not the very specific technique I'm thinking about. The "dice setter" morons are still delusional. They try to minimize and account for bounce. The technique I'm thinking of eliminates it completely but it isn't a scoot. Jason PS: The word "believe" in my first sentence doesn't refer to the possibility of making the shot hold up - I know for a FACT that's possible. I've seen it done dozens (hundreds?) of times. What I "believe" is that the technique is legal under Nevada law on a regulation craps table. It's not been tested by the courts however, so I can't prove it.
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Tony45 Veteran user 384 Posts |
Jason, I have never had guys try to slide me. I have guys try other stuff but no slide, now I have slide playing once or twice,lol !!
Guys have to look at a crew because they don't try anything, if they don't look, they dummys. We don't big deals when some guys don't hit they wall, we see if they try it again, then we tell them easy. Third time, the box of the floor say something and if the guy is betting good money, they will tell em nice. If they keep coming up short, now it starts, lol. Its usually funny for us, especially if its a flea we abuse them a little. Now if you know what youre doing, its no problem. We laugh when some civilians make a big thing about it, they aint making nothing anyway. |
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