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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » New Heavyweight Champion of the World (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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magicfish
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On Dec 5, 2015, imgic wrote:
Who beat who? ( or should that be whom?)

I don't recognize anyone in boxing nowadays...

Its stated in the OP
LobowolfXXX
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On Dec 4, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Rowdy, that computer thing was a crock of ****e, as everyone knows. As for picking Rocky over Holmes, you'd be on a loser there. Larry was four inches taller, fifty pounds heavier, and a far better boxer. Rocky was durable, but he would have been ground down and spat out.

Ali wasn't better than Holmes. Their records tell the story. Ali lost twice in his prime; Holmes never lost. Ali defended the title successfully ten times on the trot; Holmes twenty times. And, even counting Ali's subsequent reigns, Holmes held the title longer.


I don't think the records tell the story with respect to Ali and Holmes, but I think they're close. Holmes didn't fight a peak Frazier, and he didn't lose years of his prime to politics. As for the original idea, though, I'd definitely favor Both Ali and Holmes over Marciano head to head, and I'd favor a number of other heavyweight champions over Marciano, too. Marciano was great, but he benefitted quite a bit from the fact that there were no great heavyweights for 20+ years (between Louis and Ali) and only a couple of very good ones (Walcott and Charles).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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Dannydoyle
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The problem with any comparison with Ali was his political positions taking away so much of his prime. So much of his prime was lost. He also was fighting 15 round fights as opposed to today.

Holmes was the first title fight to be for 12 rounds I think wasn't he? After Boom Boom killed Duk koo kim? Do you not consider having to train for possibly a 15 round fight something to consider? I forgot who said it but it was a quote like most good 10 round fighters can do 12, but it takes something else to go 15.
Danny Doyle
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imgic
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2015, imgic wrote:
Who beat who? ( or should that be whom?)

I don't recognize anyone in boxing nowadays...


Sorry was being a bit obtuse unmaking the point that in past everyone knew Ali, Fraizer, Foreman, and even Tyson. Nowadays nobody in my social circles could have named the boxers mentioned in the OP.
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lunatik
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Gays don't want new champ as the sports personality of the year. Oh brother, no one can have an opposing view without being labeled a bigot or racist, such an easy thing to call someone without much discussion so as to try to shut them up. I hope the magazine doesn't cave into their silly demands.

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Ali had a better chin than Holmes and fought much better competition than Holmes. Watch the Holmes/Norton 15th round. Kenny Norton was way past his prime. Look at how many punches Holmes took. Marciano would have broken him. don't take just my word for it, look at where the historians and other famous boxers rank them. Holmes better than Ali, the only place you will hear that is on the Magic Café.
magicfish
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2015, imgic wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 5, 2015, imgic wrote:
Who beat who? ( or should that be whom?)

I don't recognize anyone in boxing nowadays...


Sorry was being a bit obtuse unmaking the point that in past everyone knew Ali, Fraizer, Foreman, and even Tyson. Nowadays nobody in my social circles could have named the boxers mentioned in the OP.

Interesting. What do Ali, Frazier, Foreman, and even Tyson have in common?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Dec 6, 2015, rowdymagi5 wrote:
Ali had a better chin than Holmes and fought much better competition than Holmes. Watch the Holmes/Norton 15th round. Kenny Norton was way past his prime. Look at how many punches Holmes took. Marciano would have broken him. don't take just my word for it, look at where the historians and other famous boxers rank them. Holmes better than Ali, the only place you will hear that is on the Magic Café.



Historians generally rank Holmes and Marciano very close. The International Boxing Research Organization, for instance, put Marciano 5th and Holmes 6th in the latest all-time rankings (compiled in 2005). In a head to head fight, the style clash would not have been good for Rocky. If a 38 1/2 year old Jersey Joe Walcott could pile up a points lead through 12 against him, what would a much higger, younger Holmes do? I think the most common result in a hundred fights would be Holmes by decision or late TKO. Holmes had a 5-inch height advantage, a 13-inch reach advantage, and a 20-25 pound weight advantage.

As for Ali and Holmes, I rank Ali higher, though I think it's closer than you do. But the what's the evidence for Ali having a much better chin? Holmes's chin was just fine until he took on Tyson when he was almost 40. He suffered a few flash knockdowns, just like Ali. I don't think he was hurt in way Ali was by a fighter comparable to Cooper, and he took on Shavers twice.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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Does modern training and nutrition help modern fighters and skew comparisons?
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rowdymagi5
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Ali fought harder punchers in their prime. Like George Foreman, Ernie Shavers, Joe Frazier etc.

And if the height and size are such a huge factor, then why did Tyson walk right through Holmes? Admittedly Holmes was past his prime but still, it was an easy fight for Tyson.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Dec 6, 2015, rowdymagi5 wrote:
Ali fought harder punchers in their prime. Like George Foreman, Ernie Shavers, Joe Frazier etc.

And if the height and size are such a huge factor, then why did Tyson walk right through Holmes? Admittedly Holmes was past his prime but still, it was an easy fight for Tyson.



Holmes fought Shavers twice at or near Shavers's peak. He took his best bunch, and he lost one round over the course of two fights. Shavers was Ring Magazine's #10 all-time pound for pound hardest puncher.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
TonyB2009
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On Dec 6, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Historians generally rank Holmes and Marciano very close. The International Boxing Research Organization, for instance, put Marciano 5th and Holmes 6th in the latest all-time rankings (compiled in 2005).

Only elderly white historians!

Any list of top twenty that puts Marciano, with his six unimpressive title defenses, in the top ten, immediately betrays the ethnicity and age of those polled. Instead of looking with rose-tinted spectacles at the past, we should look at the actual records of the fighters involved. The stats don't lie; the memories of elderly historians do.

On the matter of chins, Holmes had a chin every bit as tough as Ali's. He proved that many times.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Dec 6, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 6, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Historians generally rank Holmes and Marciano very close. The International Boxing Research Organization, for instance, put Marciano 5th and Holmes 6th in the latest all-time rankings (compiled in 2005).

Only elderly white historians!

Any list of top twenty that puts Marciano, with his six unimpressive title defenses, in the top ten, immediately betrays the ethnicity and age of those polled.


Not true. I know some qualified boxing historians who are fairly young and/or clearly not white who esteem Marciano highly. As for the age, it's double-edged. The memory can deceive, but there's something to be said for the opinions of those who actually saw the person being assessed.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Slim King
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Tommy knocked out Razor after being beaten up the entire fight. He also beat George... A crazy ending to his life and career.I always thought he was under-rated. Awesome left hook.
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Dec 6, 2015, rowdymagi5 wrote:
Watch the Holmes/Norton 15th round. Kenny Norton was way past his prime. Look at how many punches Holmes took. Marciano would have broken him. don't take just my word for it, look at where the historians and other famous boxers rank them.




https://www.ibroresearch.com/2020/03/heavyweight/
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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I think Fury is the worst heavyweight champion that I have ever seen in my life.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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gallagher
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Hey Tommy,
I have to disagree, with you there. 🤔
I like Fury.
I like his attitude, as a Heavyweight boxer.

There's a lot of,...'craziness', in his attitude.
He's a big man,..who'd not scared.

Living in Germany,..East Germany,..
I've grown to dislike this 'sport boxer'...
'tactical dandy-lion pusters'.

The Klitschkos,..sportlers,..yeah,..
but when in came to 'the fight'....?
ahhhh.

I like Fury.
I can't wait to watch he and Anthony square off.
One thing for sure,....it'll be a GREAT Show!
gallagher
tommy
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Before you know it Mike Tyson will knock him out.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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On May 26, 2020, tommy wrote:
Before you know it Mike Tyson will knock him out.

Not a chance.
tommy
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Certainties and impossibilities are nonsense. What odds is no chance?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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