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jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
I love making my own equipment from scratch.
We all know that IT can be made at home by stripping a single fiber from woolly nylon, which is available in a large variety of colors. I bought a black spool from my friendly local craft store 10 years ago for $4.99 and it will last me for the rest of my life. I'm now trying to figure out how to make my own IET, but I'm having way less luck. I think mono-filament Lycra fiber is needed, and it apparently comes in huge spools all the way down to 10 denier (which means 10 grams per 9000 meters---wait, what? 9 KM of the stuff weighs only 10 grams? Yeah, it's really thin stuff). I have no idea how you'd even manage a spool of stretchy fiber that thin without losing the end of it all the time, or how it's practical for manufacturing use. Like, who's threading the machine? But anyway... Lycra fiber is apparently available in black at the fiber level now: http://connect.lycra.com/Technologies%20......es/BLACK And I have found a video showing how to extract Lycra from a sock cuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWNlOdzjtnM As you can see, the resulting Lycra fiber isn't that thin, and it's white/clear and very shiny. I tried this with some low-quality socks here at home, and the fiber I got out of the center was standard "rubber" elastic (in both white and black kids' socks---the elastic core was white and black, respectively). It was very hard to pull out of the "woolly nylon" sheathing, because the rubber creates a lot of friction, and it kept breaking. In the above video, the sock is likely higher quality and made with Lycra, and the core looks slippery, so it slides right out of the nylon sheath fibers. I've spent a few hours searching online for a supplier of Lycra mono-filament (no sense in stripping nylon sheaths if I don't have to), and I can find almost nothing. Seems to be something that's only sold as a commodity from one industry to another. I did find this on Amazon, which goes all the way down to 20 denier: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?u......one+-hat But... where did those cones come from? Maybe left-overs from some industrial application. Where's the main source? Or maybe Lycra isn't used, because it's too shiny. Maybe standard "rubber" elastic is used (flat black, maybe perfect), but there's a source for the tiny-denier elastic core, unsheathed, by the spool. What bothers me, a bit, is that the magic folks selling tiny quantities of IET, like the folks selling tiny quantities of IT, know a readily-available source and just aren't telling. I don't think they're making it themselves, because they surely don't have a polymer chemistry plant at their disposal. It's kinda like... since Elmer's Glue doesn't work well for crafting, someone tried to sell you a tiny, custom-packaged tube of "Magician's Glue" for $20, but they were really just repackaging Aleen's Tacky Glue. Or maybe someone brought a single spool of the stuff back from Japan a decade ago and everyone has been selling and re-selling that same spool's worth ever since? A single one-pound spool of the 20 denier stuff contains over 400 KM of fiber.... that's probably enough to supply the entire world's population of magicians for life. And when PET 2.0 comes out.... it's because someone finally sourced a new spool from some industrial fire sale, but this time it's 35 denier instead of the 25 denier of the old spool. Get ready to have your mind blown by 2.0! |
jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
Following advice I found here in other threads, I bought some nylon and spandex hosiery (4% spandex). I was able to pull some yarn out of it that looked like woolly nylon, and the yarn seemed rather elastic, but the individual fibers that I was able to extract all seemed like regular, inelastic nylon fibers (standard IT). I didn't see any fibers in the yarn that looked different or seemed like the source of the stretchiness.
My understanding is that the yarn is made up of a bundle of fibers, probably something like 24 nylon fibers for every 1 spandex fiber. But finding that one special fiber in the bundle must be like finding a needle in a haystack. Any tips about how to do this? |
Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
You are correct, dealers sell their merchandise to make money, to add to their income. So why should they tell everyone were to get their initial product. The world moves around with currency, and to survive. I do believe these people do more then just go buy a bunch of thread and make the rest up. They do their homework, talk to manufactures, and learn what the products are made of, then they experiment to find the characteristics of the products. This all takes money to invest in, travel, phone calls, and working with many people.
Don't really know what your point is. You are more then welcome to become the next great thread king, but no one will hand you a gift. This is a capitalist country. It works on currency, but to get that currency you have to invest your money and time. Just like on television, when someone goes on a talk show to tell their success story at creating a business, we see copies of that business pop up all over the U.S. Now they have competition, why tell people who will take your business away from you. Lastly, you really think these people that sell IT, sit their day and night stripping thread to sell. Why take apart a thread that was just assembled by a manufacturer who can sell it as a strand they started with. It's okay to find out for yourself, but then you started to sound like you have a right to know their secrets and how they do the process. Well, you do not, and no one in their right mind will willingly tell you. The ladies nylon business is dead, and there is not the products that were around 40 years ago. If is misunderstood your post, then good luck on your testing. |
Ihop Inner circle Glen Spey, NY 1604 Posts |
Jason,
Wow, that was really a lot of work. Thanks for sharing and helping other magicians. That's what it's all about. I also am a DIY person and have been using IT for a while. Lately I've been using IET more often. But it's quite expensive when you take into account all the breaking while practicing. Thanks for the time and sharing. Let us know if you find a good source.
Ihor
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jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
Well, I come from the game programming world, where stuff is hard to figure out, and we all really want to see the very best games be made, so we're all willing to share the cool stuff that we figured out, when we figured it out.
The magic world is a strange one to me. I get that we want to keep secrets from the public... like the very existence of IT. I can confirm that the general public thinks IT is something that doesn't exist, that it's a myth, kinda like the XRay Specs sold by Johnson Smith. But once you know that IT exists, why should HOW TO MAKE IT FOR FREE be a secret kept from other magicians? Don't we want everyone to be advancing the art of magic and doing the most amazing things possible? Well, I guess not, because that counts as competition. But it's not like we're saying, "Hey, I want to be the only one who's using IT, so that I have unique tricks." I get that. It's more like, "I don't mind if you use IT too, but I'm not going to tell you where to get a lifetime supply for free. No, I'm going to sell you some of my free lifetime supply for top dollar and pretend like it's a priceless commodity." And yes, stripping Woolly Nylon into single strands is a valuable service worth paying for, for some people. So, sell that service! But don't pretend like you've got some secret formula when your source material came from JoAnn Fabrics. I've always noticed that there are TWO groups of people being deceived in the magic world. The audience, of course. But almost just as important, for the industry, is the deception of people who are purchasing tricks. Look a the text in some of those old magic ads... deception is in the DNA of the trick business. Spandex/Lycra/Dorlastan fiber is a DIRT CHEAP industrial commodity. We're talking a few dollars for POUNDS of the stuff. Check out this thread: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=87602 See where Rudy starts out selling you a 1 pound spool for $6.25 + $5 shipping, and by the end of the thread, the same spool is now $80? Even on Ebay, the person selling Dorlastan spools for $6 woke up and is now selling the same spools for $45. And guess what? Those huge $80 spools of "Infinity Elastic" aren't even available anymore. It's now sold in 200-foot packs for $15 each. Capitalism is cool, but finding out how to buy an $80 thing for $5 is even cooler. That's the other side of capitalism---the consumer hive mind which will drive prices as low as possible and seek every avenue of greater efficiency. Hello, Internet. I have no interest in becoming the next "thread king." I do have an interest in figuring out how to purchase a dirt cheap industrial commodity for dirt cheap. Furthermore, if it IS really dirt cheap, then our usage of it can expand into more interesting territory. If IT is precious, we might not want to string up a whole stage with a criss-cross web of it, which might limit the kinds of tricks we design. Same goes for IET. If you have kilometers of the stuff at your disposal for cheap, what might you do with it? So, more leads here. Did y'all know that Dorlastan is made by a German company called Bayer (yeah, the aspirin company)? Did you know they opened a US-side Dorlastan Plant in the Bushy Park Industrial Park in Charleston, SC? Here's Bayer's Dorlastan Brochure: http://www.ageko.de/pdf/bayer_6.pdf Sounds like this new N100 Dorlastan comes in ribbon form and is used in the cuffs of disposable diapers. That may be another DIY source that's easier to extract than from panty hose. And would you look at that! US contact info right there in the brochure: Bayer Corporation James Coccagno Phone 001 843 820 6413 Fax 001 843 820 6455 james.coccagno.b@bayer.com Now, I'm guessing you have to buy this by the palette load, which I'm sure is part of the problem here, and where some of the markups come from. Running a mail order business is a pain. So, if you can buy the spools for $2 each in a palette and then sell them for $6 each individually, you're getting somewhere, which is where the above thread got started. Oh, and James left Bayer in 2004, so that brochure is outdated: http://www.calgoncarbon.com/about/officers/ Thomas Register is a huge database of industrial suppliers: http://www.thomasnet.com/ Found this US company that makes Lycra fibers: http://www.invista.com And here's their special fiber for diaper cuffs: http://www.hyfit.invista.com/ |
Ihop Inner circle Glen Spey, NY 1604 Posts |
Jason,
FYI I don't know if you're aware of it but there's an IT forum that is kept hidden here on the Café. It will be made available to you when you have acquired 50 meaningful posts. Information can be discussed more openly there. Regards,
Ihor
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jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
The Bayer holding was sold a few times and now seems to be owned by a Japanese company:
http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/asahi/en/news/2005/e060301.html But it still operates in SC, maybe... Nope, that plant in SC is closed: http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/asahi/en/news/2012/e120803.html So there's no Dorlastan manufacturing in the US anymore. |
jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
Yes, I've heard of those secret forums. Maybe someday!
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jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
Here is "Pure Lycra" fibrous bead cord:
http://www.beadaholique.com/p-10476-bead......-ft.aspx 82 feet for $7. Sounds like it may be composed of many fibers that could be separated, but I'm not sure. |
lejulio New user Worlwide 56 Posts |
Thank you Jason for your research. I think the same thing. I understand that it's a work to find a good stuff, create packaging and sell it but some prices are crazy.
If you find the graal, I'm interested |
king_amongthepigs New user 59 Posts |
I'm also really interested in this Thank you a lot for your research, Jason. I'm also from the game programming community and I think I understand you point of view. Let's hope for the best.
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jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
Turns out that there WAS spandex hiding in the hose that I bought at the dollar store. These were little, cheapo "footies" for wearing inside shoes with bare legs. There was no spandex in the foot part, it seems, but in the cuff, which was much more stretchy, I found black spandex strands easily. 4% spandex must mean cuff only, I guess.
Anyway, this looked like a very thin piece of black elastic. There's no mistaking it for nylon when you find it. It's stretchy as all get-out (a rather amazing material), but also very strong. Sadly, it wasn't quite thin enough to be invisible up close, but I was at least able to tie a loop and play with it. It was way thinner and stronger than rubber elastic. But it was black, which was surprising. My next step is to buy some "ultra sheer" pantyhose (small denier) and see if I can extract the super fine, really invisible spandex. Apparently, if you cause a horizontal run that travels naturally all the way around the leg, you can then unravel strands of unlimited length (hose are spiral knit). Apparently, the package will list spandex contents separately for the leg and panty part. I'm guessing that the part with a smaller spandex percentage uses thinner spandex fibers, but it could also just use fewer fibers of the same thickness. |
jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
Okay, a happy end to this story, and a near lifetime supply of very fine IET for $7.
Went to the drug store today and found L'Eggs Silken Mist pantyhose, ultra sheer leg with control top. I noticed denier ratings on the sides of all the boxes, and they ranged from 10 (what I bought) to 30 or 40. I bought "Jet Black" color. There was another black that was more of a dark brown. These were 33% spandex in the leg and 19% spandex in the panty. Anyway, at home it was a bit of a struggle to get the circumferencial "run" going in the leg. You have to pull one strand near the top of the leg with a pin and the pull it out of the knit gently. It tends to break as the hose bunches up. But if you're careful, and keep tugging on the broken end, you'll find that the hose splits evenly in a nice clean line around the circumference of the leg. Don't cut it with scissors. You have to get this nice, real "run" going. Then you have a "raw edge" of whole, uncut fibers just waiting to be unraveled. Pull them carefully, and they unravel round and round the leg, kinda criss-crossing with other strands that start pulling out too. Get a long one and cut it. It looks like very fine woolly nylon, but if you stretch and relax it, you'll see the nylon kinda clump up along the length of the strand, and in the center you'll see the spandex fiber remain taught. I'd suggest a stereo magnifying visor (I have one for watch repair) to do this, because it's extremely fine. Anyway, hook your pin through the taught spandex part in the middle of the strand near one end, tug a bit, and get the end of the spandex free from the nylon fibers. Then work it out just like a strand of nylon from woolly nylon. Tape one end to keep track of it. This is really invisible stuff. The result, for me, was an amazing material. So fine, finer than a spider web, but so stretchy and bouncy at the same time. Wound around a blue-back playing card, it was almost completely invisible, even upon very close inspection and under various angles of light. Glancing light (back lighting) is the only thing that makes it visible. On the white side of the playing card, you could barely see fine black lines if you looked very closely. So I guess the stuff that I pulled out was black, but honestly, it was hard to tell. It's a bit on the shiny side (I've heard other IET described as "matte black"), but I don't think it matters because it's so fine. Floating match on a card looks crazy and spooky, no matter how close I got to it, even through my magnification visor. |
Ihop Inner circle Glen Spey, NY 1604 Posts |
Jason,
Congratulations. It sounds like the hard work paid off. When I run out of my current supply of IET, I'll give it a try.
Ihor
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lejulio New user Worlwide 56 Posts |
Thank your very much Jason.
Unfortunatly, this stuff is not available in my country. It will be for the next time ;-) |
jasonrohrer New user 12 Posts |
Wait, what? Women don't ever wear nylon hose on their legs in your country?
Also, Ihop, it's not a totally satisfying conclusion. A $5 spool of spandex fiber would be much better. These exist all over the world, apparently, but people have no use for them outside the textile industry, so they're very hard to find. Here's to all those people still serging their own garments at home (Woolly Nylon!) |
lejulio New user Worlwide 56 Posts |
Women in my coutry are naked ;-)
No excuse me, I don't speak very well english that's why I write short sentences and I have difficulties to explain certain things. I wanted to say that I didn't find this exact brand/reference (L'Eggs Silken Mist pantyhose) in France . |
Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
I can get quite a bit of that Lycra at work. Very easy to send some if you want to try it.
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