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Dark Elite user 406 Posts |
I've gotta go a little off topic and say:
Yes, follow your dreams of becoming whatever you want to be. A professional magician, the president/prime minister of a country, the next #1 pop star/musician. Go! do! aspire! But to the young minds who might be reading this (and I'm sorry if this sounds cliche), it's important to work hard at school, get good grades, get a G.E.D. (General Education Document(?)), go to college/university and get a degree! (I have a masters in engineering myself). Why do I say this? Not because they may not be successful at their endeavors, but because they might find there's a whole world of opportunities that they haven't explored yet. I would would be very sad to see them 20+ years from now, looking back and regretting that they never gave themselves the option. Alright, I'll let everyone get back to the original topic... |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
My father the late Billy Bishop fed six kids and only performed magic shows for my entire childhood. Later he owned a magic shop as a semi retirement activity.
Without the income from shows the magic shop would have folded the first year. My Mom and I worked in that magic shop and never drew a paycheck after the first three years he owned it. I made my living by performing magic in restaurants and doing magic shows. For over 20 years. I have booked and performed in over 87 different restaurants and night clubs all over the mid-west and several other states. People in magic (the non doing group) often make statements that you can't make a living in magic. I look at it as a want or a need. Do you want to make a living in magic? Or do you need to make a living in magic. If you need to make a living in magic... You most likely will find a way to do it! In my view-point - The Universe doesn't always provide us with what we want... Only what we need! If you think you can't make a living in magic... You most likely can't make a living in magic... People that need to make a living in magic will most likely find there way. Best ahead, Glenn Bishop Quote:
On 2004-03-03 16:41, Rocky wrote: Speaking about Dai Vernon he had some ups and downs making a living in magic. Most people in life have ups and downs. When booked into homes of the rich for Francis Rockefeller King it was a time that he had money to burn. He also did two acts on the stage that were bookable. One dressed as a Chinese performer and the other as a harlequin. He performed on the stage of the Radio city music hall. I would call that successful. He also did close up in some of the best hotels in New York and performed in one of Billy Roses night clubs after being recommended by Cardini. I would call that successful. But like most magicians they have a life of ups and downs. Dai Vernon used to leave town at the drop of a hat to go off to find some person that could do card cheating moves. This upset people that were trying to book him at shows. Francis Rockefeller King pushed Dunninger instead of Vernon. He tells this in his last book the Vernon Chronicles. Dunninger was reliable and there-fore more bankable. Doing shows is a business and Vernon was a successful performer that did not run his magic like a business. When you decide to make a living in magic you have to give up much of magic’s social side. Vernon liked to session with other magicians. So did Marlo and Ed Marlo performed in the Chicago magic bars for years and was also a successful performer. But when you have to be there at your show or restaurant venue at the same time that there is a convention in town or a lecture. You have to go into work. I would like to be at the big convention here in St. Louis. But I am booked in MI for the week... Vernon was a successful performer but like many magicians... He had a life of ups and downs. Glenn Bishop
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
Wow, the $$$$ I made just his week must be in my imagination...
Work close-up and stage and derive my families sole income from performing for lay audiences. I play theaters, dinner theaters, casinos, cruise ships, corporate parties and trade shows. I do stage and close-up work. Of course, I am multi-talented and combine music and magic with a charismatic and unforgettable character. I get paid handsomely. And I didn't have a cent to invest. I started with Mark Wilson's book 20 years ago and built from there. I entertain with my character not with my props. Sorry, but the argument that you can't work full-time in mystery entertainment is a fallacy. Big Daddy Cool |
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enriqueenriquez Inner circle New York 1287 Posts |
Maybe what Rocky was trying to say is that you can’t make a living as a close-up magician working on his restaurant.
;) |
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Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
OK, let me revise my previous reply. This will probably ruffle a lot of feathers and get me banned, but here it goes...
Rocky is correct. Most of you who call yourselves "magicians" could never hop to work full time in magic. Especially if you are like most of the so-called magicians I see. Technically inept, stale presentations, no sense of showmanship or presentation, no personality, no dramatic training, boring. Average magicians who will never achieve excellence will never have a hope of performing full time. And unfortunately that is the vast majority of magicians. However, if you do dedicate your self to excellence, spend the time developing your showmanship and acting skills and developing a charismatic and engaging persona, then you may have a chance. But not if you are just one of the club guys. Flame on. Big Daddy Cool |
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KerryJK Special user Northampton UK 621 Posts |
That really isn't my experience (if not as a magician then from experience in the entertainment business in general), there are plenty of mediocre jobbing performers doing the bread and butter circuit, they tend to make up for their poor performances with good marketing. Working the system really is a talent that cannot be taught; I've personally known many lazy pros in different fields who got paid off or just ignored everywhere they went but always found new suckers to hire them. The downside is if you are happy to build your career just as an apathetic journeyman, you've reached your career ceiling and you know it. For some people this is all they've ever dreamed of, for others it's a reason to hit the bottle, hard.
So back it comes to "define success". |
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David Todd Inner circle 2328 Posts |
Agree with you Big Daddy Cool, but this holds true for most arts and entertainment. We have all seen wannabe singers, guitar players , bands , stand-up comedians , etc. who are truly horrible. These people will probably never make a good living doing it because they don't have a) the talent or (most likely) b) the determination to put in the required work to hone their skill.
The guy who says he "wants to play guitar like Hendrix" , but then won't put in the work (every day , hours per day) will never play like Hendrix or any other pro . The unfortunate thing about magic is that the magic dealers tend to stress this " Easy to do" " No skill required" approach which lulls people into believing they can be called a magician just because they purchased some apparatus at a magic shop. The other arts tend to stress the difficulty and the hard work required to be considered proficient , and it weeds out those who are not really serious. No "Instant Downloads" to be a great singer , dancer, painter, or violin player . |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I feel that anyone that is a nice person and has good social skills can become a good colse up magician. Because I feel it is not the tricks that really make you great. The tricks are part of it and you do need tricks, and you should perform them well if you call yourself a magician.
But... I feel that if you have the social skills and you go to a magic shop you can do restaurants. You can perform in restaurants with... A sevengali deck, sponge rabbits, the penatration frame, the coin in the bag in the match box, and the larger match box... An effect maufactured by adams magic and sold as the jiffy coin trick. My point is that the tricks are easy to get and do for people. That is if you like people. And you have reasonable social skills. Rhe thing about restaurant magic is that where most people fall flat is that they don't have the courage to go out there and do it. They have to find a place and have the courage to ask for the job. The show or the close up magic will fall into place with the performances of the material. And that will be what you choose to do a show with. But you have to be the kind of person that is good at going in and asking for the work. That is where most of us fall flat in the world of show business. It is finding the leads and calling the leads and selling ti to the buyer. Because in order to get to the audience you have to get past the buyer... That is the owners and show bookers of our entertainment world. Anyway, that is my slant! Glenn Bishop
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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thumbslinger Elite user This is a good number: 458 Posts |
Just stumbling to this post made me think of something that I haven’t seen mentioned yet.
If “Rocky’ actually owns a restaurant but is a closet stand-up comic mentioned perhaps it boils down to this: He got paid too little while trying to make it as a comic, couldn’t make it and, in turn he pays too little for entertainers and must have run up against someone, though young, who had a value for his talents and asked for what he was worth, though not in Rocky’s eyes.. Being in advertising and design, I see where money is both blown and spent wisely. Too much to go into here, but the field of photography is one area that is getting hammered by and in my industry. And though stock photography has a very definite impact, it’s also those photographers who don’t know how to do anything else for money and will ultimately screw themselves by accepting lower paying gigs because of that nasty little thing called...’responsibility to bills/family/survival.” (not counting poparrazi type of stuff..that’s a whole other industry...not ‘photography’.) I think there are many like Rocky who don’t value anything non-materialistic unless it’s something they personally understand and like. However, I have met many ‘younger 15-22’ year olds whose basic education of the ‘world’ is totally non-existant and/or supplanted by the dream of fame, money and women! YES-by 15 years of age there should be some sense of knowledge past your own backyard..again..that’s a different thread but if you have kids and all they know about is what’s happening in their school..take it on yourself to help at least introduce them to other things. That’s the ‘problem’ with having ‘realistic’ dreams too young. They need to be changed to goals and approached as possible achievements and they all can be, but it takes far more than skill, no matter that skill, to actually be hired, paid, respected and known for that skill. That, I think, is one of the ‘deep’ reasons so many younger magicians think it will be easier than it is to survive as a magician.
Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed and Tommy Emmanuel are all you need to study to learn to play guitar.
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radiantentertainment Regular user Donald Collins 112 Posts |
Most times I make the average mean income for my area performing close up at restaurants, sometimes mores or less. This doesn't count my private shows. To make that mean average most work 40-55 hours a week at a job they dislike. I typically work 14 hours in the restaurants and love it.
I didn't feel the need to debate with Rocky. I wish I had a nickle for every person who said it would be impossible. If Rocky's post caused anyone to decide not to attempt going pro they probably would not have made it in the first place. It is show biz, filled with rejection and people telling you only a select few make it. I knew I could do it with enough dedication and perseverance. Many people spend at least four years in college learning a trade while working a second job. My thoughts were along the same lines. I paid my dues performing and learning magic while I worked second jobs. I went full time making almost twice the average income for the area, had some set backs, and had to start over. If needs be I would grab a square job again, continue to learn and grow in magic, get back on my feet and try again, and again, and again etc.... I disproved Rocky to a degree my second day learning magic. I came from a poor family. Brown beans, gravy and biscuits, chicken livers, passed down clothes, and even a outhouse at one time. I mean poor! I began learning magic at the age of 19. I was teaching snowboarding at a local ski resort. A ski instructor who did a little clowning and magic for the resort wanted to learn how to snowboard. I made a trade and he taught me Cannibal Kings. The next day I talked to the head of events and was performing for a little above minimum wage for 8-10 hours a day/ 4 days a week. I got really good at Cannibal Kings! The next day the other guy loaned me S&S, sponge balls, a silk, and a TT, JB bo bo's, expert card techmique, and his whole video library,1-3 easy to master card miracles. He performed with a Svengali deck and S&S. He was as much of a beginner as me even though he had been at it for four years. There were no other magicians in the area. I look back and I am embarrased about my ignorant approach, it had its advantages but this is a whole new thread. I had found what I wanted to do. Everyone laughed their heads of at me. Now I feel bad for them as they cant find jobs in their fields, as they complain about their choice of degrees, or they make twice the average income but dread waking up everyday. It can be done but you have to be self motivated, have thick skin, dedication, and perseverance. You may never be full time but it can supplement your income, you may be fulltime but never be financially rich, or you may be the next David Blaine. If you love magic you love magic. Do what your heart tells you. I only mentioned Blaine due to the close up nature of this post. Doesn't David Blaine discredit Rockys' statements? If I had it to do over again I would have stayed in college and taken drama, acting, marketing, Biz management, and such classes. I may still do so. The difference between a dream and a goal is a deadline. Somebody has to be astronauts, rocket scientists, musicians, actors, and magicians. Good luck and good fortune to all with the courage to chase their dreams. Don
Life is not a dress rehearsal!
Less is more. & Knock'em dead! |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
And even if you make the attempt and fail, so what? At least you'll know you were one of the few who had the courage to give it an honest shot, and you won't be looking back on your life asking "What if...?"
Just do our beloved art and those of us who are dedicated to magic a favor. make sure that you do what you do very well, that you are a good person and that you treat your clients and audiences with respect and integrity. Leave your employer and audiences with a higher view of magic than they had before they met you! Then, regardless of what Rocky or anyone else says, and whether you "made it" financially or not, you will have been successful!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Thomas J. Polis New user Maryland USA 3 Posts |
I am a new member to the Café and I deeply appreciate everyone's warm welcomes. It is great to be here with all of you! For the better part of my life I have been a professional magician, clown and prop/effects builder. I sprouted my roots at Billy Bishop's Magic Shop in Illinois and I was accepted as family by Billy, Ann, Glenn and all the rest! Some of the very best advice I ever received came from those wise folks in the shop. Glenn Bishop has given some really great advice here and I suggest you follow it to the letter! You will go far! I have heard the comments from the "supposedly-wise-ones" who have said "You can't make a good living in magic", and I can tell you Glenn knows what he's talking about. He taught me a great deal about the mechanics of magic - being a good technician - but the best I learned from him was how to be successful. Here are a few of my thoughts which reflect what Glenn told me throughout the years...
Don't do "a magic act" - Put on a show - the best entertainment show you can. Don't buy Business Cards - Hit every shop, restaurant, mall, market, theater, club, liqour store, school, gas station...everywhere and talk to people! Call them, write them, visit them, email them. Get your show together and sell it! Sell it! Sell it! Sell it! Do some charity or lowered-rate shows - It will bring more call-backs then you could ever Imagine! I have gotten more shows then I could count just by volunteering to help collect money for the Salvation Army and Knights of Columbus groups. Work with local and state government agencies. You can meet more potential clients and get yourself noticed. I worked a gig for the Illinois State Police and they put my picture in the papers and I got over 50 great paying gigs out of it. It works - do it! Learn from every routine you do - Every spectator is different and they give all sorts of input. Don't settle for a good routine - Adjust it - Tweak it - Try new things - Try removing some - it will help make your routines and your show great! Get your experience and then go out and get more. It's not easy but it is gratifying and you will find that good money is out there to be made. Once you get the good money - don't stop - Keep moving and adjusting and trying new things. Let your creative juices flow! When the money starts coming in good and you keep repeating the inventive cycles to stay fresh and sharp, take a quick look in the mirror and see the well-paid professional magician...and smile...then hit the road again and keep selling selling selling!
"Whatever you do, do it with all your might. Work at it, early and late, in season and out of season, not leaving a stone unturned, and never deferring for a single hour that which can be done just as well now." --- P. T. Barnum
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Bradley Morgan Special user 702 Posts |
You Really don't need to be a good magician, but a good entertainer. If you can do that, then you can make a successful career. But it does help to have good commercial material. I love the art of magic and wherever it takes me I will go.
Best Wishes Always, Bradley Morgan
"I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." - Einstein
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Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-04-25 03:26, Bradley Morgan wrote: Ugh. I don't even know where to begin here. To successfully entertain with magic, you must be technically excellent. That does not mean that you must know how to execute every technique created, but it does mean that you really have to know your stuff. And I hate to be harsh, but if your goal is to be a good magician or a good entertainer, stop. No performer should ever settle for good. You should strive for excellence. Be an excellent mystery entertainer. |
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CWMoss Regular user 111 Posts |
Rocky seems to suggest that anyone who does cloe up magic but has also developed other skills has failed as a close up magician.
Tom Mullica is disqualified because in addition to being a gifted magician, he is unfortunately also a briliant character actor. He is also disqualified because he published his successful act. Not to mention the fact that he ended up owning the place where he performed. What a loser. David Williamson is hilarious so he's out. Not to mention he published his some of the material that made him successful. Any magician that has ever been paid for giving a magic lesson is out. I recently performed at the Magic Castle. Since there were probably magicians in the audience, I'm out. To qualify for Rocky's standards, a successful close-up magician must perform only close up. They must begin pennieless. They must never be paid for a lesson, key note speech or consultation. They should never work the Magic Castle or any magic convention and they should be very careful not to develop any ancillary skills. No matter how successful they become they should never contribute to magical knowledge base unless they give it away. This dream is becoming a nightmare. One of the great things about being a full time pro is the variety. For 15 years I've made my living solely from performing. I love close up but I also love performing stand up. I have some things I would like to publish. The problem with Rocky's criteria is he defines a close up magician as something that no one would want to aspire to. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-03-02 17:05, Rocky wrote: Sorry Rocky... I made a living on performing nothing but close up magic in restaurants for several years. Yes, I worked in my Fathers magic shop but I wasn't getting a pay check. And I lived away from home. And I made my rent every month. This was before I did any stand up magic and before I started to do stage shows as a hypnotist. I don't work restaurants now as a full income because I have other show business ventures that take up my time. But I made a living doing nothing but close up magic in restaurants... For several years! Glenn Bishop
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Thomas J. Polis New user Maryland USA 3 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-04-21 17:14, Scott F. Guinn wrote: I completely agree. I never won an award, nor did I ever have a big bank account (or a "rich father"), but I believe I put on a good show, my audience enjoyed themselves and I did pay my bills. I enjoyed every step of the journey and I was successful!
"Whatever you do, do it with all your might. Work at it, early and late, in season and out of season, not leaving a stone unturned, and never deferring for a single hour that which can be done just as well now." --- P. T. Barnum
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Paul D Elite user NY 455 Posts |
Ive been performing magic for money since I was 16 I'm now 24 Ive never had any other job except bartending I only did that because I wanted to deal with drunk people I'm now 24 and make between $25,000-40,000 yearly.magic has payed for my eductation I'm a certified paralegal and plan on opening a magicshop within the years end.magic has been good to me because of the effort ive put into it and the contacts ive made I will never need to use my degree to financially support myself but its nice that I can tell my kids daddy went to college and so should you but pursue what you love.
Astonishment as Therapy...?
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The above post shows you the value of a college education.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-03 16:53, Bill Palmer wrote: Ha-ha-!!!!
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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