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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Oh man do I need some advice (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Twitch
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Buckley, WA
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I have encountered a major problem in the last week and I could use some advice from my fellow Christians. Here's a little background into the situation: first since September I've been performing a lot in my area and my friend Christina and I have devloped quite the reputation among the youth in are area. While most of the magic we perform is not gospel we are not quiet about are beliefs and are highly outspoken and proud Christians. We both have a gothic image and no one has ever said anything about the way we dress and what we do up until now. On Monday the 23rd of February, we attended a pastoral screening of The Passion Of The Christ. Outside the theater our head pastor asked me if I would perform some of my effects for some of his colleagues, and me never being one to shy away from a performance, did three card tricks, the Razor blade illusion and an effect that I have come up with where I drive a spike into my palm in cruxifiction type manner.

Now all of them thought it was excellent but there was a pastor on the outside of the group glaring at me. This usally happens every now and then so I didn't think anything of it and went on with my day.

Fast forward to Wednesday afternoon and I get a call from my youth pastor telling me that I need to get to his office quickly. So after I get changed and get down there he played me a tape of sermon that was held on Tuesday night from the pastor that was glaring at me. The whole sermon was about witches and people being possessed by demons showing vulger displays of witchcraft to other servants of God and he specifically called me out in this sermon, telling every one of the kids in his youth group to boycott everything I do and spread the word that I'm in leagues with Satan. I've been an active member in this Christian community and I have broken my back for a long time to get DJ'ing and magic accepted and now I got this one man leading an attack on everything I do to bring people to the Lord. I'm at my wit's end I even had to leave church on Sunday because I had some of these people following me and yelling at me. It's crazy I need some advice because it seems my only other option is to fight back and that's not the kind of person I am.

God Bless,
Josh
Andrew
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Josh,

This is a tough position.
I too have met with this type of Criticism, though not to the extent that you are facing.

If you are convinced that this is the ministry to which Christ has called you, then you must continue…but be as gentle as a lamb and seek God’s wisdom.
That probably sounds trite, but it is not meant to be.
I would ask the Lord for wisdom and then speak to this pastor personally in a very non-defensive and respectful attitude as you explain your ministry.
He may of course reject you and your opinion, but if he sees Christ in your motives, he may be open to understand what you are wishing to accomplish…and recognize that both of you are on the same team.

I too will lift you up in my prayers regarding this matter.

Andrew
Andrew
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Brian Lehr
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Perhaps you can also ask your own Pastor to intervene and talk to the other Pastor. After all, the offending Pastor is slandering the reputation of a member of another Pastor's congregation. This is just wrong, and goes against Scripture itself.

Also, is there a local Ministerial group (regular gathering of the town's Clergy), to whom you can appeal and try to get things straightened out?

Brian Lehr
James Peters
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Josh,

To start with, if he has a problem with you, he should have come to talked to you first, not preached a sermon on it.

The best thing to do is go and see him, not on your own, but with someone whom he will respect. Then you can have a discussion which is mediated rather than confrontational.

This is the one time I would actually consider revealing how the tricks are done. If he's gunning for you, and you can show him it's just a trick (no demonic involvement at all), he'll probably feel a bit daft.

Do it gently, though. Remember, you want to win him, and he's going to have to swallow his pride to make things right.

I trust it will all work out ... let us know!

James.
Rob Johnston
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Keep in mind that just because he is a pastor does not make him correct. He sounds as if his ignorance and stubborness is blinding his faith and acceptance of all creeds.

I have had similar problems and I just keep to my regular business and continue life as I always have. Hang in there, and keep bringing joy to peoples lives! That is what really counts.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
BroDavid
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Not having seen the performance that he criticizes, I can only assume that you did some very nice effects, and that he was either not listening, too far away to hear, or maybe you did not make it clear enough that what you are doing is simply a Trick.

Certainly, his approach to the situation seems way over the top. And he did nothing Biblical in his attempt to communicate about what he saw. He essentially did the same as a rumor monger would do, and started talking to others who have no stake in the discussion, without facts, and he apparently kept talking as long as folks would listen.

James offers a very Biblical approach above for you to pursue. The fact that he did not pursue a Biblical course, does not mean that you shouldn't.

But I have seen a lot of magic presented by Christians who get excited about the performance, and flat out forget to explain that they do NOT have super powers, and that they are just using deceiving the eyes and even the mind to entertain, and to demonstrate how easy it is for us all to be fooled.

Only you know if this last situation is a possibility, and if so, an apology to that other pastor along with a complete explanation of what you should have said, would be appropriate.

However, if you were clear, (either initially, or in a laer explanation) and he just did not, and will not hear it, there is nothing you can do about it. Nothing is so hard to open as closed mind. So pray for him, shepherding a congregation is tough work, and a diligent Pastor needs to be discerning about what he supports or allows in his congregation, so even if you don't agree with him, respect his position, give him the benfit of the doubt, know that the issue is between him and God, and move on.

I will pray for you. And for him.

God Bless!

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Twitch
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Thanks for the kind words and prayers. I have attempted to get ahold of his office the last 2 days and nobody has decided to return my calls about having a meeting to discuss this problem. As it stands the situation has only gotten worse since posting. My car has been vandalized and I've actully had a bible thrown at me by some old lady outside of Krispy Kreme doughnuts. I'm actually writing this post from ST. Louis where I'm attending a youth confrence so I'm hoping when I get back things will have calmed down.

While I am trying to take this in a Godly manner, it's been rather taxing on me emotionally. And after a lot of thought about this I'll be the first to admit that some of my effects that I commonly perform are rather intense and without hearing what I say, it could look bad. Most people have labeled me the Criss Angel of christianity so I can see how it looks, but this kind of action is just mind boggling to me.

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers and I'll keep you all posted as to what happens when I get back.

God bless
Josh.
Daniel Faith
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You have my prayers too.
Never give up.
People need you.
Daniel Faith
Chance Wolf
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Josh,
This sounds like the mentality that was around during the Salem Witch Trials! I would recommend to gather a group of well respected people within the church(s) and set up a "magic" workshop which would cover basic tricks and how to wrap a spiritual message within the effect. Be sure to invite the Pastor who has a problem with your "magic". If he can see this in context then maybe he will change his views. If he chooses not to come then you can have those who did attend to submit testimonials describing their experience.
This is a tough situation that is really getting out of control. I wish you the best.
Chance
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles

A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started!

http://www.wolfsmagic.com
Rob Johnston
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Quote:
On 2004-03-04 23:18, Twitch wrote:
Thanks for the kind word's and prayer's, I have attempted to get ahold of his office the last 2 days and nobody has decided to return my calls about haveing a meeting to discuss this problem. as it stands of today the situation has only gotten worse since posting my car has been vandalized and I've actully had a bible thrown at me by some old lady outside of krispy kreme doughnuts. I'm acutlly writing this post from ST. Louis where I'm attending a youth confrence so I'm hoping when I get back things will have calmed down.

While I am trying to take this in a godly manor it's been rather taxing on me emotionaly. and after alot of thought about this I'll be the first to admit that with some of my effects that I commonly perform bieng rather intense without hearing what I say it could look bad. most people have labeled me the Criss angel of christianity so I can see how it looks but this kind of action is just mind boggleing to me. thanks for the thoughts and prayers and I'll keep you all posted as to what happens when I get back, excuse the mass spelling errors I'm a little jet laged.

God bless
Josh.


I love the mentality of some self-proclaimed Christians. They go to church, yet they vandalize other's cars and throw the Word of God in an effort to hurt someone else.

It sounds more like The Crusades to me.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
Twitch
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Well I'm back home. As nice as it was to be away from all this drama, I'm glad to be home. Well I've got good news and bad news on the subject... good news is that I got the pastor that has started all of this to sit down and have a meeting with my entire crew and my pastor, so he gets to meet everybody involved in my ministry. As mad as I've been at this guy I'm really looking forward to getting a chance to talk to him.

But the down side to all this, is while I was gone, a member of this pastor's youth group bumped into my girlfriend at the movies while she was out with her friends and decided to follow her and her friends and then proceded to harass her in front of Red Robin calling her names that I will not mention here (but it is enough to have me persue some legal action against this guy and the ones who spray painted witch on the hood of my car). It's one thing to mess with me but not my loved ones.

Thanks for all the thoughts and prayers. I have a strong feeling that this is nearing the end. Hope all is well in your lives,

God Bless,
Josh
James Peters
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Josh,

Best of luck with the meeting. Keep a cool-head and hopefully the whole problem will go away!

James.
John LeBlanc
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That's a tough, unfortunate situation. Remember this, though:

Quote:
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Matthew 18:15-17

I don't know about anyone else, but easier said than done. It still works wonders when I practice it, though. Just something to think about.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Escamoteurettes, my blog.

"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
sdgiu
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Sounds like you are really going through it.
I believe you've received excellent advice already in physically dealing with this person.

Know this, we're praying for you, and here are just a few scripture verses that came to me while reading this post.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
(Guess who said that... sort of a rough way to go about it, but looks like you've got a special blessing coming)

The only person you can actually control in this situation is you.

Luke 6
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

"Stay the course" and You have nothing to worry about. God is God, He's in control, and HE Loves YOU.

If God be for us who can be against us. Romans 8:31b

Godspeed
Steve Smile

Ps

Look up col 3:12-17

I believe someone may have already covered this, however, Matt 18:15-20 tells Biblically how to handle this situation, And of course instruction on forgiveness follows in the next several verses.

Z
GlenD
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I have been reading of your situation and all the good advice given. I am glad you have a meeting set up with this pastor. I can not help but think that if the situation does not improve greatly after you get to sit down face to face, as brothers in Christ, and talk to each other then someone must be very unreasonable.
I also cannot imagine someone throwing their bible (the word of God) at someone else??? That is baffling behavior to me and I would think that person is in need of sincere prayer.
I do hope that you, your girlfriend and others in your close circle of friends and family do not receive any further harassment.
Keep us posted so we can help if possible and of course pray for you.

In Him,

GlenD
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
BroDavid
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I also have to wonder when the seeds of the other Pastor's ministry is verbal harrassment and vandalism....

Pray for him as well as his flock. A lot of what has gone on so far surrounding his response to what he saw, and his unBiblical response, seems to speak poorly of his maturity and discernment.

I will continue to pray for you and for him, and all those that he leads.

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Don Wilson
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One important point to consider--carefully choose the tricks we perform, especially in a Christian venue. The spike thru hand, especially with this film, could certainly be viewed as the wrong choice. We must watch what we say and do as to not trip up another believer. The pastor, however, is acting contrary to scripture by being judgemental, gossiping and backbiting, to name a few! Don
Leland Stone
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Hiya, Twitch:

I'm constantly amazed by the trivia which gets the modern Christian community's knickers all knotted up.
At the same time, substantive issues are routinely marginalized and ignored.

Pastors of prominent denominations routinely and falsely predict the Apocalypse; a popular Christian singer revokes her wedding vows "because God said it was okay," and heretical teaching is tolerated on a major Christian network -- all with the tacit approval (or at least benign neglect) of said Christian community. Yet a charlatan appears to poke a nail through his hand and the display provokes a sacrilegious crisis.

Your plight is maddening, and one with which I empathize. For whatever it's worth, when confronted with similar mindsets or accusations, I occasionally respond thusly:

"I affirm that there is a personified source of malevolent supernatural power in the cosmos, and his name is Satan. But he doesn't do parlour tricks.

"If you want to see satanic power displayed, go to the local abortion mill where human life is counted as debris, or the liquor store where human bondage is purchased by the pint. Go to the hall of records where loving vows of fidelity and trust -- though sworn unbreakable by any save death -- are readily dissolved in ink. Better still, observe the power of darkness at work in your own luxury automobiles, hidden safe behind tinted windows while obliviously speeding past some miserable wretch digging subsistence out of a rubbish bin. If you seek evil in these illusions, then you seek it in the wrong location."

Sincerely,
Leland Edward Stone
Rob Johnston
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You shall know them by their fruit.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
Terry Holley
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You all may be interested in these articles as they relate to the controversy that fueled this post:

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2......nd1.html

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2......s11.html

If you take the time to do some searching through that web site, you'll also come across letters to the editor that side with the Reverend.

It is my understanding that the Reverend mentioned in these articles has not provided any proof to his claims as of last week.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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