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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All in the cards » » Possible failure case for Untouched (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

jasonrohrer
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After seeing Daryl Martinez's "Untouched" mentioned a few times here, I looked up a video of it being performed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS00_BXjTxU

I could tell how it was done right away, since I've used a similar principle in many other card tricks.

However, in playing around with it myself, I shuffled the deck, fanned it out, and .... OH NO, the top two cards were the 8 of diamonds and the 8 of spades.

A moment of panic set in (even though I'm not in front of spectators) as my mind struggled to resolve the situation. Then I realized that there is no resolution. I cannot "dream" a card from elsewhere in the deck.

I'm guessing there's some back-up plan for this somewhat unlikely case.... like, "Oh, wait, let's really make sure that deck is well shuffled. Why don't you shuffle it again?"

You could also say, "Actually, I just remembered, I dreamed of two cards!" And have them pull out the two other 8s. Though that seems to weaken the effect substantially.
Magiconcio
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"Oh, wait. Have you cut the deck?"

Have they cut the deck. I think it's unlikely that you're gonna fall on the same situation again. Or maybe you can have a back-up trick. Can't think of any, though.
David Fillary
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Don't mention the "dream" patter until you've selected the card. Then if two cards come up, pick the matching pair as you mentioned. I've done this before, but informally so just kind of winged it without much patter. If you were doing this more professionally you would need another presentation to go with it.

The bigger problem I find is with the suit though. Getting a pair of the same suits is harder to rectify and has a 1/4 chance of happening. That means the chance of it happening twice is 1/16, which are quite high odds if you were performing at an event for several hours! And asking them to shuffle again more than once would seem a little bit odd.
David Fillary
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Just thought of another solution, but involves momentarily touching the deck. Find another pair in the top few cards that works better. Then, after they have removed your card, take the cards off of them to "demo" how you want them to deal the cards. In the process, deal off as many cards as you need to get the desired cards on top. Then put those cards on the bottom, or into the deck and hand them it - all is now ready.
jasonrohrer
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Yeah, I tried performing this (for my kid) and asked him to provide a deck. He pulled out a brand new Bike deck (ordered), opened it, and barely shuffled it. Whoops! The first two cards were the same suit. I didn't realize how that would cause trouble.

I told him to shuffle more, and then the same thing happened again. Shuffle again.

At this point, he was getting pretty annoyed. So, the reshuffle or re-cut is a no-go. The whole point is that the spectator has complete control of the deck and makes the choices. Subverting that really saps the power of the trick.

I agree with the likelihood of two of the same suit being a huge problem. I think the solution is something like this:

If both are red, say, 8H QH, you "dream" of the QD and put it on the table.

Then, after the two stacks are out, you say, "Okay, now this stack should be the value. Please flip the top card over. Yes, a queen. Now, the next stack should be the suit. Please flip it over. Hearts!... now wait a minute... the Queen of hearts is right there, so that couldn't be my chosen card. In facing this future situation, I guessed I dreamed the best that I could. Flip my card over. Yes, the other red Queen!"

You could do the same with two same-value cards that are different colors (8S and 8H... wait, the 8S is right there, so it couldn't be my card.... must be the other black 8, yes, the 8 of spades).

And finally, the worst case of all is two of the same value AND color. (8D and 8H). At that point, I think you need to dream of two cards after all (the two black 8's). Of course, this is rare.


I haven't actually read the trick in any of the books where it appears. I'm assuming these contingencies are handled.

Other tricks that use similar principles don't suffer from this problem.

The source of the problem is the symbolic nature of a pair of cards, and the danger of some pairs symbolizing a member of the pair itself.

It seems like a variant of this trick could work where we end with one pile and the top card is simply the mate of the card we dreamed about. Maybe that's even more impactful, because the "this pile represents the value and this pile the suit" seems a bit wishy-washy.... like it gives the magician too much wiggle room to switch which pile represents what, and requires the audience to hold two conflicting pieces of information in their mind. They see the QH and 8C and must focus instead on the QC.

Of course, the two piles is great for the distraction factor. Maybe there's something with two piles where they are later combined together.
Juble
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Hi

Why not consider "The Known" by Thom Peterson - link below. Very similar effect and elminates the issues you are having.

http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/6482

Best

Justin
murf
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It's been many years sine I watched Daryl teach this on one of his videos, but I do remember that he had outs to handle "unfortunate shuffles". Maybe the answer is to look up what he actually taught....

Murf

P.S. Daryl was not fond of people using his last name! I remember him giving a good tounge lashing to someone who introduced him that way at a lecture. His professional name is just "Daryl".
eralph357
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When I run into this, I encourage the spectator to 'burn' a card, like poker dealers do in Texas Hold 'Em before proceeding. Then your focus shifts down to the next two cards. The odds of three in a row are much less.
Claudio
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When this happens, instead of two cards predicting one, I switch to finding the two mates. So if I spot the 8D and 8S, I ask two cards to be withdrawn (8H and 8C.) The patter has to be adjusted slightly of course. One might argue that the effect is even stronger.
jasonrohrer
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In experimenting more with this, it seems like dreaming the two mates from the beginning is the best option if you really want fool-proof, two-pile, flip-the-top-card-of-both-piles at the end.

I think it may be even stronger where you dream only one card (the mate of the eventual card, and this can NEVER go wrong, because every card has a mate), and then have them deal off any number of cards (pick a number between 10 and 30). Then have them deal those into three piles. Then given them two false choices to narrow down onto the right pile. Then have them flip the top card, and show them the mate that you dreamed.

There are, of course, many variations of this, where you deal into piles, stack them, re-deal into more piles, then do the false choice part, etc.

I guess false choices are suspicious and not to everyone's taste. But one in three times, you get to pack a wallop when they pick the right pile on their first choice.

The key innovation in Untouched is not the ending, but the method of finding the card you dreamed about.
SamChak
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Quote:
On Jan 8, 2016, jasonrohrer wrote:
However, in playing around with it myself, I shuffled the deck, fanned it out, and .... OH NO, the top two cards were the 8 of diamonds and the 8 of spades. A moment of panic set in (even though I'm not in front of spectators) as my mind struggled to resolve the situation. Then I realized that there is no resolution. I cannot "dream" a card from elsewhere in the deck.


No worries. In that situation, you just have to take note of the 3rd card and proceed with the Untouched procedure with slight adjustment. You instruct the spectator to deal 3 piles, but select only two piles and turn over the top cards. Proceed with the single card revelation and retain the psychological impact of Untouched. Daryl is brilliant guy because you can see the flexibility of this effect.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science."

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Francois Lagrange
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Quote:
On Jan 9, 2016, Claudio wrote:
When this happens, instead of two cards predicting one, I switch to finding the two mates. So if I spot the 8D and 8S, I ask two cards to be withdrawn (8H and 8C.) The patter has to be adjusted slightly of course. One might argue that the effect is even stronger.


Yes, I think that's the way to go. Brilliant.
Protect me from my friends, I'll take care of my enemies.
Claudio
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Quote:
On Jan 10, 2016, Francois Lagrange wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 9, 2016, Claudio wrote:
When this happens, instead of two cards predicting one, I switch to finding the two mates. So if I spot the 8D and 8S, I ask two cards to be withdrawn (8H and 8C.) The patter has to be adjusted slightly of course. One might argue that the effect is even stronger.


Yes, I think that's the way to go. Brilliant.


Thanks, but I can't take credit for this. I read/saw it somewhere, just can't remember.
NotThatLarson
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Quote:
On Jan 10, 2016, SamChak wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 8, 2016, jasonrohrer wrote:
However, in playing around with it myself, I shuffled the deck, fanned it out, and .... OH NO, the top two cards were the 8 of diamonds and the 8 of spades. A moment of panic set in (even though I'm not in front of spectators) as my mind struggled to resolve the situation. Then I realized that there is no resolution. I cannot "dream" a card from elsewhere in the deck.


No worries. In that situation, you just have to take note of the 3rd card and proceed with the Untouched procedure with slight adjustment. You instruct the spectator to deal 3 piles, but select only two piles and turn over the top cards. Proceed with the single card revelation and retain the psychological impact of Untouched. Daryl is brilliant guy because you can see the flexibility of this effect.


Thanks for explaining that.
amirb401
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Actually the 2 cars is a nice idea, since that way you get all the eights in one hit.

BUT! what I usually do is I start with the deck in my hands, shuffling or not it dosent matter
If it happens , I can just say "wait, I touched the deck so it isn't fair, lets start from scratch where the deck is away from my reach".

And then it usually solves the problem, if it stills happends then just ask "wait, did you cut the deck?" Or something like "you know what, xut the deck again just to make sure were all shuffled and ready".
DaveGripenwaldt
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The spectator doesn't know what's about to happen, so it seems to me there is a simple solution. When they spread the deck towards you and you see you are in the bad card situation, why not check to see if the top and 3rd card will work and then initially pick the second card from the top as your prediction.....act hesitant...and "change your mind", replacing the card elsewhere else in the deck, leaving you with two workable cards on top. Then "decide" on the card that matches the top two and go from there.
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