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gmeister
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Hi Learned Members of this Forum:

Again I'm reaching out to Café members for help on my next novel. Anyone have any ideas whether this can be done:

New deck opened; performer shuffles it once and, in so doing, stacks it; let's others shuffle; magician cuts and glimps bottom card; magician can then pick any card at any position.

So far I can see independent parts but not the whole thing, but then this isn't my area of expertise (if I indeed have any area of expertise). Even if you have some ideas on how to come close it would be greatly appreciated.

Please PM if you'd rather not answer in an open forum.

Thanks much!
gary
RiderBacks
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That requires a deck switch. It's absurd to think that you can locate any card at any position after you have left the spectator shuffle your deck. If you replace the spectator shuffling the deck with the spectator repeatedly cutting the deck, then you can pull this off without a deck switch.
gmeister
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Thanks, Riderbacks. You're probably right about the absurdity of what I proposed.However, with a few modifications, some of the absurd scenarios I asked about for my last novel became workable scenarios thanks to the creative input from Café members, so....
magicfish
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Quote:
On Jan 15, 2016, RiderBacks wrote:
That requires a deck switch. It's absurd to think that you can locate any card at any position after you have left the spectator shuffle your deck. If you replace the spectator shuffling the deck with the spectator repeatedly cutting the deck, then you can pull this off without a deck switch.

not necessarily.
BeThePlunk
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I don't know much about cards, but can I hear just a simple "yes" or "no" from those of you who know this territory well? No "how to" explanation required.

Is it really possible to take a new-order deck and stack it while shuffling, as the OP requires in his question?
gmeister
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To clarify, I know the card manipulator can go from NDO to a stack using one of several techniques. The question, at it's simplest, is how much can he then let the spectator shuffle the cards, if at all, and still maintain enough control to, say, always pick/cut to a higher card.
Claudio
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It might be easier to answer your query if you were to give a specific scenario.

In any case, it's possible (with a huge amount of practice) to have a spectator thoroughly shuffle a deck and then cull a few cards, the 4 aces say, on top of the deck while riffing shuffling. The sleight is called the "Dad Stevens Control" and you can a few references on Denis Behr's site.
gmeister
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Good point, Claudio. To this end, something from John Scarne when he was privately performing for Arnold Rothstein and his pals:

"All right, Mr. Rothstein." I reached into my grip and removed two decks of cards. But Rothstein said, "You don't mind, Johnny, but we prefer you use our cards." And with that he opened a drawer of the table and removed several decks of cards. He then removed the wrapper, tore off the revenue stamp, opened the card-case, and removed the cards. As he started shuffling I forced a smile and the other men started gathering around as close as they could. Rothstein handed the deck over to Fats Caldwell to shuffle, and then on to another one of the men, and finally the cards were handed to George McManus who did likewise and handed the deck to me.

I gave the deck a riffle shuffle and placed the cards atop the table squarely in front of Arnold Rothstein. Rothstein took his cut and turned up the ten of hearts. I squared the remainder of the deck and cut the ace of spades. A hushed silence covered the room as each of the men looked at one another as if to say, did you see how he did it?

George McManus picked up the deck and eying it suspiciously said, "Do it again."

I riffle-shuffled the deck several times and placed the deck on the table again. Rothstein bent forward and gave the deck several cuts and then placed it in front of George McManus. McManus made a cut and showed the jack of clubs. I made my cut and brought out the ace of hearts. Fats Caldwell then leaned over and got into the act by cutting a low card, and I countered again by cutting another ace."


The scene is very much like this, only the gamblers are Luciano and Lansky and I'm looking for my protagonist to go Scarne's Control Shuffle one or more better.

Hope that makes it a little clearer.
Cain
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Shuffling a new pack of cards once to stack the deck into a known order wold not sufficiently mix the cards. If knowing the order is important, then why not just false shuffle them? As for tracking each and every single card through legitimate shuffles and knowing their positions (rather than making an educated guess) that is (as far as I know) beyond the ability of any human.

Quote:
The question, at it's simplest, is how much can he then let the spectator shuffle the cards, if at all, and still maintain enough control to, say, always pick/cut to a higher card.


Part of this could depend upon how much control the performer has over the shuffle. For example, if the magician splits the deck, but has the spectator riffle-shuffle, then the cards can end up with all the reds in the top half and all of the blacks in the bottom half. A similar sort of setup can happen with high value cards versus low-value cards and the areas most spectators will cut into (top third to bottom third). With some work in the aces, and rigging a riffle shuffle for the aces to end up near the bottom, the performer can tilt the odds heavily in his favor. But if you're talking about multiple riffle shuffles, possibly over-hand shuffles, everything just becomes much, much more complicated.

I agree with RiderBacks that the closest method for what it sounds like you're trying to portray is a deck switch. Ideally a confederate would make the switch. Since this is just fictional, you could always endow a character a better-than-Steve-Forte abilities, but I think such a shuffle-tracking demonstration is pushing it.

As for the story of Scarne, and most such tales, I think their enduring appeal is owed more to unrealistic romance than an actual super-method, which is akin to buried treasure that does not exist. Legends grew around Berglas's ACAAN, but to see an actual performance is to invite disappointment. 51 Faces North is one of the most talked about tricks, but the mechanics are underwhelming (so much so people claim the "real" secret died with Stewart James). Compare Scarne's Aces, James' 51 Faces North, and Berglas' ACAAN with Kennedy's Center-Deal. The story of Kennedy is pretty well-supported, and the method well-known... but it's hardly Lost City of Atlantis.

Anyway, as for recent demonstrations, Bill Malone recreated Scarne's ace-cutting routine in a TV special.

Steve God of Cards Forte also appeared on a television special where he invited a spectator to name a four-of-a-kind. Forte then (apparently) brought the freely selected nines to the top of the deck with little more than a shuffle and a few cuts.
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chappy
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To the OP

Great question! Regarding the scenario described in your first post the answer is Yes, it can be done to the specific "conditions" you've given in your first post. In fact reading it again I think there is actually quite a lot of room to move, and still achieve the conditions outlined.

I can think of several ways to achieve exactly what you've described. And it'd be fun to discuss it, but here on a public forum might not be the right place. I'll send a PM.

Best,
Greg
DETAILS OF DECEPTION at www.thedevilsstaircase.com
chappy
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Hi again OP

Ignore the above, I'd only read your initial post. Having now read all of the posts above, I see the effect is much clearer. It'll be a fun exercise to work on this.

Best,
Greg
DETAILS OF DECEPTION at www.thedevilsstaircase.com
gmeister
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Hi Greg

Dead on, although the final phase can be as simple as spectator cuts to a card then the performer cuts to a higher card--a simple card gamble. However, I rather like either spectator cuts to a card then performer names a number and it's a higher card or both use numbers. Makes for a great scene!

Can't wait to see your thoughts.

Thanks much!
gary
SamChak
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Quote:
On Jan 14, 2016, gmeister wrote:
New deck opened; performer shuffles it once and, in so doing, stacks it; let's others shuffle; magician cuts and glimps bottom card; magician can then pick any card at any position.


It's absolutely POSSIBLE and quite SIMPLE! As soon as a new "Missy Lisa" deck is opened...

(1) The magician does a full deck false shuffle.

(2) The magician splits the deck in half and asks the spectator to do a riffle shuffle and complete it with a cut.

(3) The magician catches a glimpse of the bottom card.

(4) The magician deals the cards one-by-one face down on a table to locate any card the spectator names.

Good luck, Gary!
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science."

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gmeister
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Thanks all! Keep those great suggestions comin'"

BTW, the Year is 1931.
Nicolino
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What is a Missy Lisa deck, please? Never heard of...
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist!

Chance's Token
Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery.....
SamChak
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Quote:
On Jan 17, 2016, Nicolino wrote:
What is a Missy Lisa deck, please? Never heard of...


It's a kind of code name. If you find out who Missy Lisa is and you are a cardician, you will know what kind of deck it is. Smile
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science."

~ Albert Einstein ~
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)
Nicolino
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I still don't.
But if you wanted to be more helpful you would've clarified, wouldn't you? Smile
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist!

Chance's Token
Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery.....
SamChak
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After giving it some thought, I believe that a Svengali Marked Deck might also work. What other trick deck can you think of? Smile
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science."

~ Albert Einstein ~
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)
gmeister
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Hi Sam:

Thanks, but the deck has to be clean, furnished by the spectator and not switched.

Ideas?
BeThePlunk
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I DID look up Missy Lisa when I read your first. Scratched my head at first, then burst out laughing when I got it.
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