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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On Feb 24, 2016, IAIN wrote: Here's the thing, you've essentially backtracked on your original statement of: "I don't think that's fully correct y'know kissdadookie, the punters are far more with it than we often tend to think they are...if you ask someone to do something illogical, there'd better be a VERY good reason as to why...people put things inside envelopes, that's its only real function..." So you've assumed that they will suspect the envelope but then you backtracked and stated that it will show in your actions because you personally find it illogical. You've essentially made a generalized statement which covers all performers then on the flip side you tried to make it a personal choice. I'm not trying to persuade you just like how you're not trying to persuade me here, I'm just pointing some things out for others whom are considering this and are reading this thread. It's a discussion of course. I grab my mail, my mail is in an envelope. I take my mail out of the envelope and typically toss the envelope out or off to the side. An envelope does not necessarily need to be used for putting things in it IF it's introduced as having been holding something you are taking out from it to begin with. It's not as if you took out an empty envelope and a blank card as two separate things. It's also very silly to take out a blank card from the envelope (thus you should have something written on the card already, this is where a psy force comes into play, which is also taught/suggested in the instructions). |
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jaizon Inner circle By time you read this I will have 1552 Posts |
This should have been moved downstairs quite a while ago.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I didn't realise I was in court! Jebus...
I've asked to be banned
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On Feb 24, 2016, IAIN wrote: LoL. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I'm going to take some notes from this thread, but I will ignore my notepad and will instead write on an envelope
Because I've done that a couple of times in my life, in a pinch, when I'm not prepared...
I've asked to be banned
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On Feb 24, 2016, IAIN wrote: TBH, I've actually done that a lot, using envelopes as scratch paper of sorts |
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
Couldn't afford that...
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
If you don't like writing on the envelope, then don't. Figure out a routine that doesn't involve the envelope.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
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On Feb 24, 2016, 1KJ wrote: Thanks, I'm so glad you said that...i hadn't considered that as an option
I've asked to be banned
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ManchurianMan83 Veteran user United Kingdom 305 Posts |
I can understand many people's concerns about the envelope approach.
As a user of Steam, I would have to agree that there are stronger means of getting the info. That being said, I don't think the concept of resting the envelope on top is HUGELY illogical as some are making out. It's called Convenience. if the table had a napkin, you would accept the use that.....but that's equally illogical when it comes to 'use of a napkin' it's just that the envelope is playing the part of the nearest object to cover the card up with. if you had a Menu you would accept laying that down on top....but why not open the menu up to a random page and throw the card in? (like placing the card IN the envelope) Some things you just don't make a big thing of, you just do. Honestly, it's ONLY because it's magic that this even matters! Had I covered a card up (for something like a game, NOT magic) by resting a envelope on top (which considering the size diff between the two I would quite honstly do), if someone was to say 'why didn't you just put it inside?' my answer back....'no need..you can't see it right?'... it's only because it's a 'magical method' were discussing here that it's suddenly an issue to magicians. TBH, the REAL issue to be focusing on here is not explaining the laying of the envelope on the card (thats a non-moment), the real issue is explaining why not only are you taking the envelope away from them shortly afterward, but that your also writing ON the envelope.... You didn't think to pack two cards inside that envelope? You didn't think you might want to write your answer down too? THAT'S the real problem that the envelope method falls into, not the use of it for covering up the card. That's just simply convennience (why bother putting it inside when you'll only be taking it out 5 mins later?), but try getting away with taking away and writing on the envelope! Even if you COULD explain it away, doesn't change the fact that it kinda whiffs of unprofessionalism..that the performer had to write on a envelope.... not exactly a great impression next to writing on your business card that they get to keep after. There's issues with the envelope for sure. The illogicality of using it to obscure the drawing however is not the issue IMO. |
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On Feb 24, 2016, ManchurianMan83 wrote: Agreed. Justification is needed for having them write something down in the first place, why you have the envelope to begin with, and why you need the envelope back (which are all covered more than sufficiently in the instructions). Professionalism though, I can see that being an issue for more formal performance environments but in a close up/walk around situation, should be a non-issue. |
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ManchurianMan83 Veteran user United Kingdom 305 Posts |
Justififying the use of something doesn't make it the best, or a good, use of the item though.
if I was to use the envelope, here's two ways I would go about it (no presentation, just method, to give an idea of alternate, arguably better aproaches) METHOD 1 --------- Have TWO business cards inside the envelope. Remove ONE business card and have spectator draw something and place face down. As a quick afterthought, hand them the envelope (with remaining card inside) to cover their card up with. When time comes to draw your 'impression', momentarily take the envelope back, remove second business card and then replace envelope back on top of their card. The short time you handled the envelope is all you need to now be able to duplicate their drawing on the business card you now hold. After the routine, simply pocket the envelope no questions asked. METHOD 2 -------- {INSPIRED BY MARC SPELMANN'S 'UNDERHANDED THOUGHTS' ROUTINE (BUT NOT SAME METHOD!!!!)} Have THREE business cards inside the envelope. Remove ALL business cards and have spectator draw something on ONE and place face down. As a quick afterthought, hand them the EMPTY envelope to cover their card up with. Mention to the spec that you are getting two possible images coming to mind...maybe they changed their mind before settling on a drawing, or maybe this is an image from a previous thought they had earlier. Take ONE of your TWO REMAINING busness cards and draw GUESS #1 (which at this stage will be a blind guess..there are certain psychological drawings though you can draw at this stage that can make a match quite likely) Here comes the peek.... With your face down Guess in one hand, momentarily lift up the cover envelope and place your guess card down on top of their card before replacing the envelope back on top of both.... You now know a) what they drew, and b) if what they drew and your Guess #1 match. If on the off chance they match, no need to go any further beyond firstly fist pumping the air for blind luck working in your favour but also simply revealing the match. However, if as is more likely, they don't match, draw on the THIRD business card your GUESS #2 (which is now a direct duplication)... Ask them to momentarilfy lift the envelope once more as you swap your guess 1 for guess 2, showing them guess 1 and asking them if they changed their mind from it, or if it has some relevance as to why you might have picked it up....(sometimes you can get a nice extra hit in these moments) Now that you have settled and committed to your final guess, have them hand you the envelope which you immediately pocket, leaving them with examinable business cards, one that is their original drawing, face down under a envelope the whole time, and the other is your spot on second guess. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Those are just two examples of using the envelope in a much more disarming way than taking it back and writing on it directly. |
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TuneHV Inner circle New York 2063 Posts |
I also don't like the idea of writing on the envelope- I see how they justify it, but it still feels a bit weird to me. It's also odd that you would have an envelope and a piece of paper for them to write on, but wouldn't have thought to have an extra piece of paper for yourself? Just feels a bit unprepared.
Thankfully you don't need to write on the envelope. In Andrew Gerard's photo routine, it's perfectly justified to hand them the envelope with a photo prediction inside of it, have them write down something and cover it with the photo envelope to make sure you can't see anything. At that point you just retrieve the envelope to remove the photo and it's put away and off you go. That is how it should be utilized. |
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Sensio Special user I promise I won't exceed 641 Posts |
Both approaches make much sense and most importantly take the heat out at the crucial moment.
Thanks!! PS: for some reason I favour the 3 business cards version. It seems more natural and less contrived... Quote: On Feb 24, 2016, ManchurianMan83 wrote: |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
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On Feb 24, 2016, 1KJ wrote: There you have it! And that's the reason why Steam 2.0 does not deliver more than there was before.
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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Paul S Wingham Inner circle 1378 Posts |
I get you can "justify" but what I am not seeing is why would you. Luke jermay has a lovely peek in minds dvd where they write on a card, they put it in an envelope, they lick it amd seal it if they want. You can peak in a lovely logical moment. I'm not slamming this I just don't see how this is better than the pletherer of other peeks which typically don't need specialist envelopes.
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TuneHV Inner circle New York 2063 Posts |
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On Feb 24, 2016, Paul S Wingham wrote: Because the envelope is not necessary for the Steam principle. Its just what the PHP team added in this release. To your point, if you see no value with the envelope, than maybe the Steam 2.0 "package" is not right for you, but the method of Steam in itself and the various applications possible with this utility (with no envelopes) are what sets it apart from your typical peeks. |
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magicbrady Regular user 133 Posts |
I am very intrigued by this and really want it to make enough sense to purchase it. I actually added it to my shopping cart yesterday and backed away. Those that like it, seem to really like it. I'm just not convinced that it will do anything for me that Psypher or Informant is not already doing. My understanding is that the cool factor is there, which makes me want it, but in the end, I think I'm doing the same thing I already am doing. I think I need to pass. I wish somebody would make a you tube or something showing a logical way of using this that differs from the other awesome peeks that are already on the market.
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On Feb 24, 2016, Paul S Wingham wrote: I wouldn't use the Steam envelope for a stage performance just like I wouldn't do the coin envelope peek routine that Jermay has for close up. Different handlings/methods for different purposes/environments. The thing about Steam 2.0 is that I don't need to carry a pad around or a special wallet (I don't actually use a wallet even as a day to day thing). It packs super light and small (I have 3-4 envelopes set up with a psy force ready to go, maybe one with a fortune telling fish as for some reason no matter how silly and stupid/trivial that presentation may appear, lay people get so giddy when that fish curls up in their palm). You also don't handle the card at all which goes a long way from moving the mind reading away from reading a card to actually reading a thought (dependent on your presentation of course). |
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Paul S Wingham Inner circle 1378 Posts |
Fair comment and wouldnt it be dull if we all thought the same I'm going to try this as I think its a fun idea and one of those methods I think I'll get a kick out of douing.
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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » Paul Harris presents Steam 2.0 by Ali Nouira (141 Likes) | ||||||||||
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