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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » R.O.P.S move (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Michael Rubinstein
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Just re read the old post on Al Schneider's coins across, and the subject of the ROPS move came up. I was surprised to read a few of the old comments. I feel that the ROPS move is one of the BEST moves in coin magic, yet only a few people actually do it (Chris Korn, Larry Davidson, etc). Anyone ever try it, and why are you/are you not using it? I have been told that the timing is too difficult for most, but I would like to hear from the masses.
First edition of Rubinstein Coin Magic sold out in RECORD TIME, and the supplies of the reprint are dwindling fast! The good news, though, is that I am once again going to reprint the book, so there will be enough for everyone!! As such, and for the last time, I will have a supply of books that I can sign. All come with a free gift until supplies are gone, so first come, first serve! To pre-order, be sure to send me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com. books will be here and ready to ship the last week of September!!
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used on the book.
bignickolson
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I think that parts of it are just that false transfers seem to be way popular than steals in general. In a false transfer you do the move and you're "done". But with a steal, you need to go back to that hand at some point and if your choreography is off at all, you're toast.
SmileAndNod
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I feel like it's a really difficult move to do in a natural rhythm. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter how good the move looks if the spectator feels something is off. In principle, the spectator shouldn't even notice a false transfer, but the ROPS move just brings so much focus to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PspnJ6TU0mY&feature=youtu.be

Here's my best attempt at doing it on a relaxation beat, but it still feels somewhat off. Also I'm not a fan of having to place the coin so high in the palm. It always feels super off to me (watching someone else do it or doing it myself) which is a big reason I've always hated the classic vanish and variations of it. If I was showing the audience a coin, I'd hold it at the fingertips, not carefully place it onto a specific point in the very center of my palm.
funsway
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I would hate for any reader to think there are only two options just because the discussion is comparing only two.

There are other to "get the job done" --although I am not conversant with all of the uses of ROPS.

Kickback moves, Put & Take and Pseudo Passes come to mind.

The Tamariz approach is also a possibility -- just tell them you did it and they believe it.

The choice should be effect driven and not just "my favorite."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Michael Rubinstein
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The ROPS move actually saves you from unnecessary hand movement. If the last coin in a routine is in the left hand, most would take the coin with the right hand and do a false transfer back to the left hand. If you do the ROPS move, you just basically show the coin in your left hand, and remove it without any extra movement. So there is a lack of movement, not an extra movement. It also doesn't have to be done too high in the palm, it can be done right from the center if you need to. Later I will lost an effect where it is used.
First edition of Rubinstein Coin Magic sold out in RECORD TIME, and the supplies of the reprint are dwindling fast! The good news, though, is that I am once again going to reprint the book, so there will be enough for everyone!! As such, and for the last time, I will have a supply of books that I can sign. All come with a free gift until supplies are gone, so first come, first serve! To pre-order, be sure to send me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com. books will be here and ready to ship the last week of September!!
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used on the book.
taiga
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I personally learned the ROPS move at the end of '80. Back then the VHS cost ($$$) was so high that, unless you were rich, you try to get the max out of what you bought. I had the " Michael Rubenstien Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights" set and the most valuable move I learned from this for me, is the ROPS MOVE. To execute this move as it should, you must follow EXACTLY the instruction of Mr Michael Rubinstien. Position of the fingers are crucial. When the result of your steal is so-so, most of the time it is because the executant does not make the proper positioning of the hands and the fingers. I can say without a doubt, that it's probably one of my best move in my repertoire. I do this with one coin, two coins overlaped, with my third finger while holding a card with my first and second finger and a few other I probably tried and found too strange (or useless). I knew, back then, that the move was on it's way when my girlfriend asked me one day if I had glue or something at the tip of my finger because she didn't saw me "grab" the coin(s)! THANK YOU Mr. Rubenstien for making it available. (after all those years at last!)
inigmntoya
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I'm certain no offense was intended, but it's _Dr._ Rubenstein. He's a veterinarian, so he's a super doctor. Regular doctors only treat one species and their patients can answer questions. Smile

Quote:
On Feb 14, 2016, taiga wrote:
I personally learned the ROPS move at the end of '80. Back then the VHS cost ($$$) was so high that, unless you were rich, you try to get the max out of what you bought. I had the " Michael Rubenstien Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights" set and the most valuable move I learned from this for me, is the ROPS MOVE. To execute this move as it should, you must follow EXACTLY the instruction of Mr Michael Rubinstien. Position of the fingers are crucial. When the result of your steal is so-so, most of the time it is because the executant does not make the proper positioning of the hands and the fingers. I can say without a doubt, that it's probably one of my best move in my repertoire. I do this with one coin, two coins overlaped, with my third finger while holding a card with my first and second finger and a few other I probably tried and found too strange (or useless). I knew, back then, that the move was on it's way when my girlfriend asked me one day if I had glue or something at the tip of my finger because she didn't saw me "grab" the coin(s)! THANK YOU Mr. Rubenstien for making it available. (after all those years at last!)
taiga
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Quote:
On Feb 14, 2016, inigmntoya wrote:
I'm certain no offense was intended, but it's _Dr._ Rubenstein. He's a veterinarian, so he's a super doctor. Regular doctors only treat one species and their patients can answer questions. Smile

Quote:
On Feb 14, 2016, taiga wrote:
I personally learned the ROPS move at the end of '80. Back then the VHS cost ($$$) was so high that, unless you were rich, you try to get the max out of what you bought. I had the " Michael Rubenstien Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights" set and the most valuable move I learned from this for me, is the ROPS MOVE. To execute this move as it should, you must follow EXACTLY the instruction of Mr Michael Rubinstien. Position of the fingers are crucial. When the result of your steal is so-so, most of the time it is because the executant does not make the proper positioning of the hands and the fingers. I can say without a doubt, that it's probably one of my best move in my repertoire. I do this with one coin, two coins overlaped, with my third finger while holding a card with my first and second finger and a few other I probably tried and found too strange (or useless). I knew, back then, that the move was on it's way when my girlfriend asked me one day if I had glue or something at the tip of my finger because she didn't saw me "grab" the coin(s)! THANK YOU Mr. Rubenstien for making it available. (after all those years at last!)


Yips! My mistake!!! Put it on the fact that I was writting something directly to Mr... DOCTOR Rubenstein!!! (He's such a technician with coins. A model to follow. And his concepts and routines!). Sorry!! Didn't mean to be rude...
Ado
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And yet, you all misspelled his name even though it was right under your noses...

P!
Michael Rubinstein
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No worries, its a common mistake. Smile, when the move is done correctly, no one sees you touch the coin at the point of the steal. The touch is only implied, never seen. Here is an old video of a few retention vanishes. The last two use ROPS technique, the ROPS move is the last one, and the one before is the ROPS retention pass. I will try to upload a routine using the move in context at another time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7z85ZHZTkck
First edition of Rubinstein Coin Magic sold out in RECORD TIME, and the supplies of the reprint are dwindling fast! The good news, though, is that I am once again going to reprint the book, so there will be enough for everyone!! As such, and for the last time, I will have a supply of books that I can sign. All come with a free gift until supplies are gone, so first come, first serve! To pre-order, be sure to send me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com. books will be here and ready to ship the last week of September!!
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used on the book.
tyler_rabbit
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Seriously a couple times I thought Dr. Rubinstein was setting up for the move early on by doing the actual gesture without the steal (what's the name for that btw? not a feint.. "Conditioning?") When he opened his hand and there was no coin I was impressed. Went home and tried it a few times in the mirror to realize it will take a significant amount of practice. Seems worth it though..
Michael Rubinstein
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Forgot to mention that the first vanish of the group in the video I posted above is also the ROPS move.
First edition of Rubinstein Coin Magic sold out in RECORD TIME, and the supplies of the reprint are dwindling fast! The good news, though, is that I am once again going to reprint the book, so there will be enough for everyone!! As such, and for the last time, I will have a supply of books that I can sign. All come with a free gift until supplies are gone, so first come, first serve! To pre-order, be sure to send me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com. books will be here and ready to ship the last week of September!!
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used on the book.
inigmntoya
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DOH!

Quote:
On Feb 14, 2016, Ado wrote:
And yet, you all misspelled his name even though it was right under your noses...

P!
taiga
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Quote:
On Feb 15, 2016, inigmntoya wrote:
DOH!

Quote:
On Feb 14, 2016, Ado wrote:
And yet, you all misspelled his name even though it was right under your noses...

P!


You just make me realized why I didn't participate in a discussion for so long! At least, I manage to tell Dr Rubinstein how valuable his move is for me.
SmileAndNod
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Quote:
On Feb 15, 2016, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Smile, when the move is done correctly, no one sees you touch the coin at the point of the steal.


My issue isn't with how it visually looks, it's just a difficult move to do on an offbeat. All the focus of the audience is being funneled right into the 6 inch square where I need to do a secret move without the audience knowing it. I'm literally pointing it out and solidifying in their mind that moment. I'd much rather do a move while no one is looking, or, even better, when they think they're looking, but they're not (on relaxation beats).

And it's not even about flashing or having them piece together the effect. I am truly unable to perform magic if I'm not confident in what I'm doing, and it's much easier to feel confident doing a move when I know that at absolute worst a couple of people might be watching it. If I happen to mess up, only a few people will see and the rest will follow my body language to where I want them to think the coin is. In a move like the ROPS, if I mess up, everyone will see because I'm pointing it out to them.

Also the timing of the move is off because one hand has to stay still while the dirty hand moves away from it. One one object is moving and the other is more or less stationary, the eyes will follow the moving object because it's more interesting. Maybe not everyone, and maybe the people who do see it will quickly surmise that the right hand is empty even though it's not, but again, I'd rather not even give them the option of going down the right track to figure out the effect.

Maybe if the right hand has a destination to explain why it's moving but the other one isn't. I was playing around a bit with crossing the gaze with the ROPS move. Perhaps a magic wand set down on your right. Open the hand to show the coin "Yes, it's still there" -Point at coin- "until..." Gaze sweeps to the wand, pauses. Eyes move from wand to audience, at the same time as the eyes moving the right hand does the ROPS move and continues to the right towards the wand with your eyes resettling on the wand at the same time the hand reaches it

That would probably work better with some setup that builds anticipation so the glance at the wand (or whatever you're glancing at) is able to get the audience thinking ahead of the magician. Maybe like this. The magician is seated at a table and has a bowl of confetti. He does a standard 1 coin ahead coins across, but for the "secret move" he asks a spectator to take a pinch of confetti and throw it at the hand. Then for the last coin he does it in the spectator hands. He takes the last coin in his left hand and proceeds as above but grabbing a pinch of confetti instead of the wand.

Or...to add a bit of humor to it, for the first 3 coins tell the spectator to throw the confetti into your face, "Don't ask how it works, I don't understand myself, it just does" On the third coin complain about them throwing it too hard or something and say for the last coin they're going to be the magician. Do the move and throw confetti in their eyes, (Maybe telling them that they need to watch your left hand no matter what. Don't blink!) That will build some apprehension for the gaze and hopefully it'll seem like your hands never even came near each other and the last they can remember the coin was plainly in the left hand.

Man, that sounds like a fun routine.
SmileAndNod
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And actually, if it's seated, after picking up the confetti with the right hand with a coin in FP you could fake like you're gonna throw it, pause, say, "it's not that bad" while relaxing and lap the coin out of FP before returning to the exact spot you were. Bam, clean ending to a coins across without any difficult moves, just using tension and relaxation.
Michael Rubinstein
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Respecting opinions, it doesn't matter which hand moves if there is a natural motivation and nothing looks out of the ordinary. With due respect to the theory that the eyes will follow the arc of the hand after it receives a coin, with virtually all retention passes the putting hand has to move naturally after the placement, or it will look stiff.The OTHER theory is that the eye will focus on where the spectator thinks the coin is being held. So if your magic is correct, you control where they look by your own focus on where the coin is located. You do this with not just your hand movement but your eye focus, body language, and flow if the routine. The ROPS move is a move that does not look like a move. A placement is a move that looks like a move because of the bigger action of a placement.
First edition of Rubinstein Coin Magic sold out in RECORD TIME, and the supplies of the reprint are dwindling fast! The good news, though, is that I am once again going to reprint the book, so there will be enough for everyone!! As such, and for the last time, I will have a supply of books that I can sign. All come with a free gift until supplies are gone, so first come, first serve! To pre-order, be sure to send me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com. books will be here and ready to ship the last week of September!!
RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used on the book.
Wilktone
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I have Dr. Rubinstein's Penguin Live lecture and recall learning about the ROPS move there. I never incorporated into any routines I perform and gradually forgot about practicing it. After seeing this topic, however, I can think of a couple of routines where it might work very well. Specifically, there are points in these routines where I'm CPimg a coin in one hand and need to perform a retention vanish with another coin to fingertip rest of the same hand. The original instructions require you to pick up a coin with the hand already holding out, place it into the empty hand and close that hand with the known coin. Then you open that hand, pick the coin back up and perform the retention vanish.

Seems to me that the ROPS vanish would work better in this case, requiring one less step. Instead of picking up the coin out of the hand you just placed it in (and requiring a motivation for doing so) you can simply open your hand, tap the coin to show it's still there, and perform the ROPS move.

I'll need to go back and re-watch Dr. Rubinstein's instructions and try this out, but I think it would fit very nicely. Thanks for bringing this move up and reminding me!

Dave
Wilktone
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Just reviewed the ROPS and realized that my description above wasn't quite right. In one routine I'm practicing I'm holding out a coin in my right hand. I pick up a coin with my left and false transfer to the right, showing the coin in my right hand (now holding out in left hand). The original instructions state to pick up the coin in the right hand with the left and then perform a retention vanish to fingertip rest (while keeping coin in CP in left hand). This happens a couple of times in this routine.

Changing that up to using a ROPS instead works beautifully, maybe only once just to break it up and do it slightly differently each time. I will need to do some mirror and video practice to ensure I'm getting the ROPS down correctly, but it seems to work better than the appearance of putting a coin into my hand, taking it out, and then putting it back into the same hand. Instead, I would put a coin into my hand, open the hand and point at it to show it's still there, and then make it vanish that way. As Dr. Rubinstein pointed out above, it saves you from unnecessary movement in this situation.

Dave
SmileAndNod
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Quote:
On Feb 16, 2016, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Respecting opinions, it doesn't matter which hand moves if there is a natural motivation and nothing looks out of the ordinary.


That is true, but it doesn't tell us how to make something not look out of the ordinary. Well, maybe it's not quite true because both hands should move. Hands/arms so rarely move one at a time (unless one is at a rest state like at the side or on a table, but even then the shoulders still usually moves). They move in unison and away from each other acting like a counterbalance.


Quote:
With due respect to the theory that the eyes will follow the arc of the hand after it receives a coin, with virtually all retention passes the putting hand has to move naturally after the placement, or it will look stiff.


I'm not talking about the movement as a whole, I'm talking about the initial movement. Motions should start and stop at the same time, even if they travel different differences, according to Slydini. If you try to move the empty hand (that the spectators are to think holds a coin) if feels awkward because there is a moment of motion where the hands move slightly towards each other before moving away from each other.

Quote:
The OTHER theory is that the eye will focus on where the spectator thinks the coin is being held. So if your magic is correct, you control where they look by your own focus on where the coin is located.


Spectators will focus on what is interesting. It's not complicated, it's not a bunch of competing theories. You don't get to decide spectators decide, all you can do is make one thing interesting while the other thing as uninteresting as possible. Humans have evolved to notice movement, so they will follow movement generally, but not always. During the ROPS move, as you do it, the receiving hand remains still and closed, and the other hand moves away before waving over it. Then the dirty hand remains hovering in the air has the left hand is opened to show it is empty. In this sequence maybe the way your right hand is held open will prove it's not there, but upon seeing that left hand empty they will start down the road of the method, and I'd rather stop them before even getting there. This is why the transfer needs to happen on an offbeat, with motivation, and continual direction. Spectators won't focus on one thing for too long so you need to be continuously directing their attention. Saying they'll just look where the magician is communicating the coin is gives too much credit to the attention span of humans. This is why crossing the gaze is so effective when used correctly. Focus attention on the coin in your right hand. Shift your attention to another object to your right (a wand in this case). The eyes shift to the audience to bring the attention to you while you do the false transfer, then back to the wand with your gaze reaching it at the same time your hand does. Then shift your gaze to the left hand pretending to hold a coin. The focus of the audience is continually controlled through the sequence from coin to wand to you to wand to the coin. See how the audience doesn't stand a chance to actually see the coin go into the hand directly, but they feel like they have. This kind of misdirection doesn't work very well with the ROPS move.

Quote:
You do this with not just your hand movement but your eye focus, body language, and flow if the routine. The ROPS move is a move that does not look like a move. A placement is a move that looks like a move because of the bigger action of a placement.


Less actions does not equal less moves. People move. All the time. Eliminating as many actions as possible doesn't make something seem more magical, it just makes magic sterile. A false transfer can be fit into natural actions because transferring a coin from hand to hand is a natural action. Pointing out a coin is in your hand is not. If I were to prove that the coin is still in my hand, I would open it, tilt the wrist down a bit, and extend my arm while looking down at the coin. To put it another way, false transfers are easier to sneak into natural actions that the brain filters out because it's not important.

If anyone wants more reading on this kinda of stuff, check out the Books of Wonder and especially the very first essay titled [u]Getting the Mis Out of Misdirection[/u]
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