Was just hunting through the forum for old time's sake and noticed this interesting exchange between Bill P and Mad Jake:

"That's absolutely correct. They were really fine cups. They have the Magi-poxy coating.

Quote:
On Dec 13, 2015, Mad Jake wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 14, 2015, Bill Palmer wrote:
The Busby cups were basically produced to order. It is believed by a rather significant number of cup collectors that the first run of hallmarked PF cups were produced by Danny Dew and hallmarked by Busby. The stainless steel hallmarked PF cups were produced specifically by Busby.

I don't believe anyone knows exactly how many sets Jeff produced.

However, there were also a few hallmarked Paul Fox sets that were produced by Rings and Things II.


Let's not forget that Rings-N-Things spun the last run of PF/DD. Bill correct me if I'm wrong.

Jake"

Now I was just looking back over my notes for those PF/Penguine/Whatever cups and Osama told me that they were, and I quote "Danny Dew spun Paul Fox cups but with the epoxy finish from RNT". Is it possible he got it wrong and they actually RNT cups?

Wooden cups (yes really!), Gary Animal original and deluxe cups, and RNT2 limited edition Bells of St Mary's listed. Now this lot I bought from the original manufacturers, every one of them (well, except for the wooden ones) so I KNOW them to be genuine....

Still got a chop cup or two to list, maybe some of those really heavy Sisti stainless steel cups... then I am done. No more PF cups!!!! (Unless the good Doctor decides those copper ones WERE PF cups after all..... well, we can dream, right?!)

Had a good chat with Bill Palmer tonight and decided that what I actually own is two sets of Charlie Miller cups.... ah well.... so one of them is on eBay... and I am out of pocket. Glad I stopped collecting rare/old cups....

This is an awesome thread folks. Thank you.

A lot to follow here as there are so many subtleties, but as a neophyte cup buyer, collector, and I'm sure...eventual seller, these are all good points to be aware of.

I am appreciative.

If you believe that your cups are not overpriced, that is your opinion Mr. Balder. Each potential purchaser will arrive at his or her own conclusion on the justification of the price of the goods. I have no doubt that when you visit the car dealership you will know the market price and judge for yourself if the sticker price is fair or not. If price of the car seems unfair, you will chuckle as the seller shouts over your shoulder: NOTHING I sell is overpriced!

I believe you priced those Porper cups at a $1,000.00 on eBay because they are currently unavailable on his website. If they were still available anyone could have purchased them for roughly $700.00 or so. The market has already informed you that $1,000.00 for this copper Porper set is overpriced.

Leo I am not going to get into an argument with you. You are absolutely right. I priced the Porper cups the way I did because they are not available. Well, duh!

That is why I priced the Lee cups lower. Like I said - supply and demand. If there is no demand, it is no skin off my nose. I told you I don't need to sell. I have lowered the price some but if they don't sell within a week or so they stay in my collection. I am no car dealership - I am a collector who has different motivations for selling - nothing is "overpriced" because it is priced at a level that either sells or causes it to remain in my collection. If you don't understand that then I wish you well.

BTW, have you any idea how fatuous your assertion is that "If they were still available anyone could have purchased them for roughly $700.00 or so." I mean, if the local Rolls Royce dealership had a sale I could get a Silver Shadow for $1000 right? How about if I just wait for that to happen before I buy my next car? Of course if I want one right now..... jeez... some people!

BTW Leo, out of that entire post of mine the only thing you took away from it was the sentence where I had the temerity to disagree with you? Seriously?

Not once did you stop to think that hey, here is a guy who made an honest mistake. A guy who is now $1000 out of pocket because he got screwed over. But at least he didn't screw anyone else over - he took it on the chin. Willingly. Without being asked. Or threatened. Or otherwise cajoled.

Maybe this guy is not so bad after all. Maybe my thinly-veiled almost-but-not-quite-libelous comments were unjustified (Quote: If Mr. Walder had no idea that those Penguin Paul Faux cups were not genuine Danny Dew models, then that implies he acquired this set believing that they were. It is the only reason he would have honestly made that error.)

Maybe I misjudged him and owe him an apology. But at least if I am not man enough to do that (and I am sure you will claim that I misread your intention and meaning in the above quote because that is the kind of guy I think you are!), the very least I could do is not continue to attack him over the price he chooses to set for HIS goods that HE paid for on a public auction site.

No? Thought not. You don't know me, Leo. So don't presume to judge me.

Of course if you have the balls to apologize sincerely for your mean inferences then I will gladly retract all of the above. But my guess is I will be staring at airborne porcines while carrying my ice skates down to Hades before I see that happen, eh?

Bob Walder and I had a fairly long conversation this evening. I took him on a brief tour of the part of the Cups and Balls Museum that was relevant to the cups in question and showed him the various differences in the Paul Fox/Danny Dew cups and others. We also looked at the Ross Bertram -- Charlie Miller -- Phoenix cup section, so we were able to determine together what Bob actually has.

During the conversation, it dawned on me that I knew who Bob is. We remembered some of our exchanges on Genii Forum during the time that he was actively collecting in France. I recalled that his exchanges on Genii Forum were generally quite cordial and knowledgeable.

My conclusion from all of this was that any misidentification on Bob's part was due to his having been misinformed by various and sundry sellers. I'm not surprised that Osama Assaf, whom I have met on a couple of occasions, might have been incorrect about the copper Paul Fox cup lookalike. If I had seen one of those during that same time period, I probably would have thought it was a genuine Paul Fox cup. There were fake Paul Fox cups going around that were quite convincing. However, there is a particular characteristic of the Paul Fox/Danny Dew cups that I own that is even more consistent than how far open or closed the mouth bead may be. And if that particular characteristic is missing, the cups are not the genuine article. On the occasions that I have purchased items from Osama Assaf, I have found him to be honest.

All of us who collect cups, paddles, coins, cars, guitars or anything else of value have run into the problem of the misinformed seller. A seller can only be as accurate in his description of an item as the extent of his knowledge permits. I can say with 100% certainty that Bob Walder has not been trying to misrepresent any of these cup sets. The fact that he refunded the money on the incorrectly identified Paul Fox cups is absolute proof in my book, that Bob is an honest man.

And I must also say that he is a gentleman.

I hope we can all put this incident in the past and treat it as a learning experience.

Bob, thanks for the conversation on the phone this evening. Please, stay in touch!

This has been an interesting read. Bill has spoken and as far as I'm concerneed, he's the last word.

Thank you Bill. I enjoyed our conversation this evening and I appreciate your kind words here. You and Jonathan have been a huge help with this unfortunate matter.

Thank you, Bob!

I appreciate your confidence; however, there may be a stray cup or two that doesn't conform to normal specs, whatever those may happen to be.

To give an example of this -- I was in the musical instrument business, mainly frets and accordions, and I can tell you from personal experience that just about the time you think that Gibson or some other company never made a (fill in the blank) with (some oddball characteristic), some fellow will walk into your shop with one of them that has something you have never seen before, and it will include a signed, dated order slip from someone like Lloyd Loar or C.F. Martin.

Final few sets of cups and one chop cup posted on eBay. Maybe not "rare", Bill, but most of them not easy to come by. So if anyone doesn't like the prices, please just walk on by - or make me an offer on here. Always happy to at least shave off those eBay fees and go from there.... Not everything is set in stone (or silicon in this case!)

Thanks all

Apologize to you? What for? All I said was that in my opinion you overpriced those Paul Faux cups. Furthermore, I also said that since you listed those cups as genuine PF cups, then you must have acquired them with that belief. There was nothing mentioned about you being a con artist passing off faux cups. You're out of control Mr. Walder.

Then do you I owe you an apology for my conviction that you overpriced those cups and the Porper cups when you first listed them? Certainly not! The buyer is entitled to his or her own opinion on the price of a given item without having to apologize to anyone!

Yeah Leo, you carry right on missing the point. Like I said - pretty much judged you right, eh? Mean minded. Libelous. Think everyone should price something at the level you can afford - if not, they are crooks. Tell you what, let's play a game of !@#$ off - you go first!

I think you're misunderstanding him. He's not calling you a crook, he's just saying that he thinks you overpriced them. He is entitled to that opinion.

I think Ferrari's are overpriced.... I think Rolls Royce's are overpriced..... see how fatuous an argument that is? When folks are looking to sell anything you either agree with the price and bid/buy or you disagree and move along. The internet makes it easy for folks to diss other folks in ways they wouldn't if they were standing face to face. I really don't give a tinker's toss about Leo's opinion on pricing. What ****ed me off was his inference that I knew the PF cups were fake. I know he is worming his way out of that accusation, as I said he would, but that is definitely what he was implying with his nasty little comments. And instead of addressing that when I posted my response he decided to concentrate on the pricing issue. Either way, I don't give a ****. There are people like him all over these forums and as long as they stay at the far end of a computer cable from me I don't care.

I inferred in some way that you knowingly tried to sell those Paul Faux cups as genuine? Well, that thought had crossed my mind as it did for many others, but I refrained from any accusations because it turned out to be an honest mistake.

So those who frown on the prices you set have to "move along" as you say, just like a police officer? They are not permitted to publicly say that they thought the price was too high?

Above all, keep in mind that the seller has the responsibility to authenticate the items on the auction block. If you want to sell your Picasso at Swann or Christie's at the highest price it can command, you have to have it authenticated before it goes to auction.

In that sense, you failed to do your job. At the prices you were asking for your cups, it seemed unthinkable that you did not take an extra step to be certain that what you had was authentic.

Yet you feel I owe you an apology. Astounding. You ask for too much, and it certainly isn't the first time.

Nobody died Leo. And nobody is out of pocket except for me. And I love the way you speak for everyone else here. You are a real stand up guy. Bravo! I am sure everyone sleeps better knowing the righteous Leo is looking out for them. I bet you would even claim to be a Christian chap. Bravo <slow hand clap>

Yes, the fact that you were taken for that Paul Faux set is not a pleasant thought for me as I'm sure it is unpleasant for others to ponder. Oh, dear, I did it again, speaking for others. My apology.

Bob Farmer has a saying: Money lost is an educational experience.