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Steve_Mollett
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What is the 'point,' Danny?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Dannydoyle
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Maslow is not about "you". (Not specifically you Steve, but the greater "you".)

It is not about mommy and daddy didn't say nice things to me like Tom seems to think.

Maslow is not about what drives US, but rather it is about trying to find out what drives THE CLIENT. If you could figure out WHY the client is purchasing wouldn't that be good information? It would help you with your marketing and how and what to do effectively. THAT is what Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is about. Not about pretending we know, not about being unconditionally supportive, not about attacking others when we are confused. All that happens here almost every thread.

People here are so quick to compare themselves to companies like Apple and Amazon yet in this VERY BASIC way they get confused and close their minds just because of who has said it. Go figure. That is a trait of all successful people I will say.
Danny Doyle
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Mindpro
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Quote:
On Mar 28, 2016, Steve_Mollett wrote:
What is the 'point,' Danny?


The point is that it's not just about any triangle pyramid someone finds on the internet, but rather the understanding and basis for human interest, needs, psychological conditioning and response.
Dynamike
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Let me paint a different picture:


Image
Keith Raygor
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Quote:
On Mar 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Maslow is not about what drives US, but rather it is about trying to find out what drives THE CLIENT.


This is basic common sense. I've never seen a marketing approach that wasn't about trying to find to what drives the client.


"On Mar 18, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
People compare themselves to Steve Jobs and all the great marketers in the world and never for a second consider why people are making the decisions they do."


Who is comparing themselves to Steve Jobs? This statement opens the thread. Where are any of these people comparing themselves to al the great marketers in the world that urged you to bring up Maslow?

And the second half of the sentence is silly. "Never for a second"? Everyone I've ever met and studied in marketing considers why people make the decisions they do.
Dannydoyle
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Well you are the expert in all things now so everything you day must be true. I admire your success.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Ed_Millis
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I've never seen a marketing approach that wasn't about trying to find to what drives the client.

Never a *successful* marketing approach, probably. But we are bombarded every day by people trying to be the "next big thing" by doing nothing more than shoving their product in front of your face, in your mailbox, in your inbox, etc etc. They are like little kids shouting "lloka me, looka me!", with never a thought about why in the world I would feel the need to "looka you"!

I've been on the wrong end of the sales stick too many times: "We need to get more of these out the door!" But they never tried to win over interested and qualified buyers and get them to *come in* the door!

And there's still a lot of people, myself included, who have thought "If I just get enough of these ads/flyers/giveaways/words in front of enough passers-by, someone will surely want this and I'll make a sale!" That's about *my* hierarchy of needs: I need to make a sale! Has nothing to do with who is the customer, what do they want, and how can I help them get it.

Ed
Keith Raygor
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Ed, I was speaking about marketing plans specific to magic, not junk mail & spam. I have yet to see one that didn't consider the intended target.
Dannydoyle
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He was talking about the same thing. But as your new positon as self appointed woelds foremost authority you choose not to see it.

Your silly agenda is showing. But rah rah.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Ed_Millis
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Quote:
On Mar 29, 2016, Keith Raygor wrote:
Ed, I was speaking about marketing plans specific to magic, not junk mail & spam. I have yet to see one that didn't consider the intended target.

That was understood, Keith. I addressed both the general and the specific, using myself as an example.

You world probably consists of magicians and performers far more professional in their business approach than those at my level. And that's not a hidden slam of any kind - simply a statement of fact. They come on here all the time asking for help with their web site or strategies for marketing - and then do it again a year or two later, not having listened to nor changed a single thing. And making excuses in the faces of those who have the success they say they want, but failing to correct the most basic problem: they don't know who they are talking to.

I have a list by my desk:
-- Who is the customer?
-- What do they want?
-- How can you deliver that so
they are excited to get it?
-- If you are unable to do that now,
how can you improve?
-- If you're unwilling to do that,
why are you here?

Many can answer the first question, and hardly the second. So they put door hangers on every house in a neighborhood, or set up a booth at an event, or take on lots of free gigs "for the exposure", and fail to communicate their message to the people who just might want to hear it. I haven't done the door hangers (though I was advised to once), but I've done just about everything else.

I can believe that the more you fine-tune your understanding of your customer, the better and more productive your approach.

Ed

(PS - in full disclosure, I have not dug in this deep, as has been exposed in previous threads, not because I don't believe it but because I simply don't have the time and life to devote to it in the current season.)
Mindpro
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Ed, you're not going to win or even be understood by the "successful," "top of the hill" pseudo-success know-it-alls that believe all that's needed to succeed is just good positive, warm & fuzzy thoughts and tired positive phrases of encouragement (which more times than not actually sets one up to fail), but I admire your points and attempts.

In reality you are correct, regardless of Keith's provided insights, most magicians are completely lost when it comes to the business side of their operations and rarely understand the levels needed to profile, target and qualify potential prospects even on the most basic of levels, let alone to what Danny, charliecheckers and others are trying to explore. Magicians THINK they know who wants their services in a very basic and generic sense - "I am a kids party magician so I need to reach parents of kids." This typically is the extent of their efforts or knowledge, they don't get into the makeup of the target clients, they really don't understand who it is, their mental levels or phases and true target breakdown or qualifying to more actual and precise levels.

Heck most of them feel all they have to do is "marketing" again in a general sense much like you described above. It's actually easy to know this as these guys are always hoping for and chasing after their next bookings. Sporadic or random. When the key to your marketing plan is based on hope and luck, these guys are easily identifiable.

Just as yourself, if these people that are constantly targeting you truly understood their target prospects, they actually wouldn't be targeting you at all. This is blanket marketing at its best based on what they THINK they know and who they THINK is their target prospect. But it's not reality in any way.

It's a shame when some want to explore these deeper levels of knowledge, understanding and education as demonstrated here, that so much effort is put into keeping this just back to surface level discussions. Some people want to progress on to the big boys pool, the deep end, others just want to seem to be king of the kiddie pool.
charliecheckers
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Quote:
On Mar 29, 2016, Ed_Millis wrote:
I have a list by my desk:
-- Who is the customer?
-- What do they want?
-- How can you deliver that so
they are excited to get it?
-- If you are unable to do that now,
how can you improve?
-- If you're unwilling to do that,
why are you here?

Many can answer the first question, and hardly the second.

Ed - thanks for sharing this list, as it helps me to think through some of my situations and ways I can improve. I will tell you that I believe many fail to answer the first question correctly, and it can be complicated. This is an area I am trying to improve on because every decision is based upon knowing this. I can also tell you from personal experience that failure to do do is very costly in terms of time and material costs of ineffective marketing pieces. Fortunately, I have learned quite a bit about this from those here who have generously shared.
Mindpro
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Yeah, I guess that is part of what I was explaining in my previous post is many performers truly do not know the answer to this question exactly and just think too generically towards this. Since it is a foundational question, as charliecheckers said, not doing it correctly makes everything based in this foundational element wobbly at best and it can be very costly in terms of time and money, not to mention frustration, confused belief, and of course ineffective efforts, expectations and results. It can lead to cause you to be addressing the wrong people with the wrong message which of course greatly works against you from the start. I can't tell you the expense of website building, promotional materials, produced video demos, letters and emails, advertising, and even creating the wrong performance content/material which can all be affected by not properly addressing this foundational element.

That's why it's wrong to push guys into "just take action" or "just do it" as it is quite evident that this sends a poor message as yes, these guys years later are still struggling and can't for the life of them understand why. They think they're doing all the right things they've been told - positive thinking and attitudes, determination, believing in themselves, all of the success cliches, taking action, got a website and video, SEO and social media (cause that's the thing to do according to the gurus), and so much more that leads them farther in debt, frustrated and off course.

As I said earlier this is NOT magicians helping magicians, it's magicians helping magicians being directed further off course and away from success, magicians helping magicians to set themselves up for failure without knowing any better.

Again, be careful who you choose to listen to.
Mindpro
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Btw, I think Ed's question while admirable are the wrong questions to be asking yourself. Thw wrong framing. A couple of them will cause undesired and unexpected results.
TomBoleware
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Mindpro, for somebody trying to sell marketing products to magicians you sure put down potential clients a lot.
Not sure I would want to learn how to market using that method.

But I will agree that folks should be careful who they listen to: bad aptitudes are catching. Many (myself included)
believe that, “what you say about others tells me more about you than it does the others.”


Now to go back and be clear on why I suggested that one should also look at ‘self’ to better understand the overall
Maslow picture: we often see things as we are, not as they are. Not until we begin to understand ourselves will we
have the tools to understand other people.

The real truth is, with sales and dealing with clients, it is not about ‘YOU’ and it is not about ‘ME’ it is about ‘US”.
‘TOGETHER’ we can get the job done.

One of the best ways to please clients is to make it easier for the client to like you. If they like you they will continue
to want to do business with you. Self understanding is fundamental to success.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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charliecheckers
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Quote:
On Mar 29, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
Btw, I think Ed's question while admirable are the wrong questions to be asking yourself. Thw wrong framing. A couple of them will cause undesired and unexpected results.

This is interesting. I can't do it now, but I have to give the list more thought and consider what you wrote.Thanks.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Mar 30, 2016, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro, for somebody trying to sell marketing products to magicians you sure put down potential clients a lot.
Not sure I would want to learn how to market using that method.

Not until we begin to understand ourselves will we
have the tools to understand other people.

The real truth is, with sales and dealing with clients, it is not about ‘YOU’ and it is not about ‘ME’ it is about ‘US”.
‘TOGETHER’ we can get the job done.

One of the best ways to please clients is to make it easier for the client to like you. If they like you they will continue
to want to do business with you. Self understanding is fundamental to success.

Tom



Tom, to be clear, I don't and never have sold "marketing products to magicians." I don't and never have sold marketing products to anyone. I do offer entertainment business resources for entertainers and have for years. I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone, but rather making resources available to those that have asked.

I also am not putting down anyone, but rather just offering on what I see and experience each and every day from my unique perspectives. Let's not confuse business tools and resources with "marketing" as they are two different things. For most the business tools and aspects of their operation (that comes between the show and the "marketing") is what is crucially missing and absent and the reason much of their marketing efforts fail.)

Your goals and priorities should be your clients or customers. Their goal and priorities is themselves. That makes it pretty clear what should be of most importance. What you want doesn't matter near as much as them. Your success needs and is based on them. Theirs is not based on you specifically. Sure "together" and "harmony" and win-win" are great ideals, but the reality is there is not such thing as equal and the advantage goes to the prospective client or customer.

Yes, I agree that them liking you (among many other important business elements) is fundamental to your success. The biggest part of YOUR success (both immediate and long-term) is THEM. Once THEY/THEM is truly understood this can dictate much of the other principles being discussed here and the proper business systems and operations.

Your line above "not until we begin to understand ourselves will we have the tools to understand other people," while I can understand that, your perspective is only one perception. I personally feel identifying and understanding THEM can allow you to properly understand yourself and your business' "self" and can often then properly add clarity and direction needed by many and help to create the answers so many are seeking, have wrong or have yet to realize.
Ed_Millis
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Quote:
On Mar 29, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
Btw, I think Ed's question while admirable are the wrong questions to be asking yourself. Thw wrong framing. A couple of them will cause undesired and unexpected results.

I would enjoy hearing more about this!! Because is the basis of what I read all the time. (Here, for example.)

On the other hand, I can feel a bit of what Tom and DynaMike are putting out there. It seems most performers struggling to get a business off the ground are "marketing" from the bottom two levels of the pyramid, while their customers are purchasing from the center two levels. I am not trying to get real psycho-babble, but I have noticed in myself that sometimes what the customer "needs" from me encroaches hard on my "safety zone" ("doing that takes me too close to my points of failure"). Which does indeed require me to either look at myself and see where I need to grow if I intend to gain those clients, or I must revise who I'm targeting so I don't engage those situations.

I also think there's some difference in the type of business. Our local ice cream shop draws in the correct customer: one who wants that product, wants it served the way they present it, and is willing to pay that price to get it. Rarely, I think (and I may be thinking wrong here) is a performer's business like that: I will draw a wide variety of people who are not really sure about what I offer, have their own views about how I should present it, and may not be sure if it's going to be worth what I'm asking.

Ed
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Quote:
On Mar 30, 2016, Ed_Millis wrote:


On the other hand, I can feel a bit of what Tom and DynaMike are putting out there. It seems most performers struggling to get a business off the ground are "marketing" from the bottom two levels of the pyramid, while their customers are purchasing from the center two levels.

You are right, Ed. I am surprised everyone did not get it.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Mar 30, 2016, Ed_Millis wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 29, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
Btw, I think Ed's question while admirable are the wrong questions to be asking yourself. Thw wrong framing. A couple of them will cause undesired and unexpected results.

I would enjoy hearing more about this!! Because is the basis of what I read all the time. (Here, for example.)

On the other hand, I can feel a bit of what Tom and DynaMike are putting out there. It seems most performers struggling to get a business off the ground are "marketing" from the bottom two levels of the pyramid, while their customers are purchasing from the center two levels. I am not trying to get real psycho-babble, but I have noticed in myself that sometimes what the customer "needs" from me encroaches hard on my "safety zone" ("doing that takes me too close to my points of failure"). Which does indeed require me to either look at myself and see where I need to grow if I intend to gain those clients, or I must revise who I'm targeting so I don't engage those situations.

I also think there's some difference in the type of business. Our local ice cream shop draws in the correct customer: one who wants that product, wants it served the way they present it, and is willing to pay that price to get it. Rarely, I think (and I may be thinking wrong here) is a performer's business like that: I will draw a wide variety of people who are not really sure about what I offer, have their own views about how I should present it, and may not be sure if it's going to be worth what I'm asking.

Ed



As I've always said, purchasing/buying/booking entertainment is different from most conventional buying or purchases. People know what ice cream is, how it's presented, served and purchased. They also likely know many different kinds, styles and brands of ice cream places - hard serve, soft-service, frozen yogurt, creamery-style, fountain-style. etc. They know the major players - Dairy Queen, Ben & Jerry's, Baskin-Robinns, Cold Stone Creamery, as well as some smaller local places. They have knowledge, know what each offers and their style and differences and they know their personal likes and preferences. So an ice cream shop knows it's correct target customers, what they want/expect and how to serve or present it to them.

I like hard ice cream, scoops. Nothing any soft-serve company could do would likely result in my business. They could spend a lot of time, effort and expense to try to convert or convince me to try their business, but why? Why put in the time, effort and expense when it is so much easier to target those that like soft-serve ice cream, that have been previous customers, and are the best match for their products. If they wanted to target new business it would be with an entirely different approach, campaign and methods.

It's different with entertainment. People don't really know what they want, they don't truly know how to shop for entertainment, what to consider, what questions to ask, what separates good from bad, what he difference and different styles and options are, and so many other things. They are virtually uneducated, unaware and are seeking the education from you when inquiring. Heck many of the callers actually start the conversation with "while I have never done this before and really don't know what I'm doing or where to start..." Around my businesses, this is the land of opportunity, the goldmine statement. It is exactly what we want to hear. It creates the absolute best opportunity for new business. The only other thing we like more is when they call knowing us, who we are, what we do/offer and 100% want us and are not even considering anyone else. We of course know this is a slam dunk.

This is why your second question above I feel is incorrect. The question, what do they want? In the context you have listed it it is actually "what you I (you) THINK they want? And, "what do they THINK they want?" As I said, most of them don't know what they want. They may think they have an idea, but truly don't or are just guessing (likely based on conventional purchases.) Doing business form this point can very easily result in lack of true understanding, settling for what they think they know/want, and ultimately booking something and hoping for the best. This is not the foundation I want for my business or to have about me or my business. This often results in a booking where you are having to prove yourself at the performance to determine if it was the proper choice for them. They won't know until the event or after the event. In my business I want to make sure they know BEFORE, upfront, with 100% confidence so there is not uncertainty or proving needing to be done.

By spending the time, just like the ice cream shop and Ira's did, they (the/your business) knows exactly the thoughts, ideas, perspectives and psychology of their clients, or those walking down the corridor. They (the business) know often before they (the customer) do. This creates a hugely different vantage point and positioning for success for your business.

Your job is to both know what they want, with 100% accuracy, and to help tell or show them want they truly want.

Just as in the example above of the caller saying they're looking for entertainment but have no idea how or where to start, I know that within seven minutes, they will:

A.) Have true knowledge and information to know what they truly want and to make the right decisions
B.) They will know both the answers to the previously unknown "how" and "where" to start
C.) We now are both on the exact same page as to their needs and interests
D.) They now understand that we are their solution to their interest and needs
E.) That if they continue to shop around, they are now armed with the right information and confidence to make an educated choice
F.) We have now set the bar against which all others will be compared and others eliminated
G.) We have created the foundation to a personal relationship (hopefully long-term) with the mutual outcome of providing the perfect event
H.) They now have in their mind the right and proper perception of which their expectations are created and based.

Now there are many more but, I won't go on.

Sometimes you may have to face it - what the customer wants and needs may be different from what you offer or is not what you offer. (Targeting and qualifying eliminates much of this.) Too many entertainers try to "be all things to all prospects" which of course can be disasterous as well for everyone. By knowing your targets and qualifying them you will likely only be dealing with those that you can best and properly serve that can offer the strongest possibility to book your services without any kind of hard-selling" tactics or sales approaches.

Glad you feel some of the positive stuff the guys are putting out there. Nothing wrong with that. But understand it alone does not create or set one up for success. It can help create the "you", but does little for the actual process, implementation, and administration of the required business elements. It will get you in a better frame of mind to fail or fall short of your expectations and does little to assure outcomes and results.
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