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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
I think you are right about there being different types of people, but they don't congregate into separate audiences. Any performer needs to be able to appeal to any type of person who might be in the audience.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
If you are a magician with a reputation and folks purchase a ticket for your show, you can make some assumptions about their expectations -- they want to see the type of magic/entertainment you offer.
If you are one of many in a variety show you can make fewer assumptions about their experience with magic or their expectations. Pouncing on people sharing a subway ride allows for no assumptions at all. I doubt that anyone would plan on performing the same effects in all three cases. Most would avoid performing in all of these settings, and not because you feel the group is A or B. A seasoned professional might shun the latter two settings, with the advantage of performing for an audience predisposed to appreciate what they do. Other regular performers (amateur or budding pro) have to make other routining decisions. They would like an appreciative audience but may not. A hobbyist has an advantage of only performing when the setting is to their liking and should not care what motivates an audience as long as it is known. I am amazed when these performers feel they have to perform on demand and give up their advantage. Thus, it seems that perhaps the critical distinction is the desire to perform a lot or a little. If little, perform only when the conditions suit you. If a lot, then expect a lot of "miss guesses" about matching your style/preparation with the expectations of the audience. The objective is to reach a point where your audience chooses to see you, and only you. If you believe that audiences are different, then your routine design and persistence will prove you correct as those desiring to see you will buy tickets. Those performers who feel all audiences are the same will also prove their point by succeeding with "any old audience." To paraphrase Henry Ford, "if you think audiences are the same or that they are different, you are probably right." I would prefer to be either a known professional or an unknown hobbyist. It is the in between uncertainty that leads to problems.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Does such a choice exist?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Quote:
On May 12, 2016, Ray Pierce wrote: Bravo! All audiences are different and they are the same. They are a variety. Even in a localized situation you have differences. That's why you have to adjust to an AUDIENCE of more than just a couple of folks as part of the discipline of performing. The only really stable performing environment that I can think of for magicians would be some place like Vegas where folks are coming very specifically to see a personality. Unless they from the Bizzaro world their expectations can be assumed positive. It's up to the performer to match those expectations with his knowledge, skill, training, EXPERIENCE. But, the magic performer that moves from one venue to another will in my experience have to be much more one their toes. Your sure-fire opener didn't seem to get the "normal" high level response. Why? And, then your experience takes you forward to make the best of the show that you can.
Brad Burt
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Which illustrates perfectly just one of the many things hobbyists never will experience or know.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
I'm glad to see that in the main George, Ray and Zach agree with the key point regarding different people requiring different things from their magical entertainment, and I notice that in general the additional disagreements in their posts don't seem to actually be related to something I said (for example I've never contended that they knowingly segregate themselves into two distinct grouos, or that an audience standing before a performer is going to be wholly made up of one type or the other, etc).
Where I suspect there will be more disagreement than agreement, though, is in follow on point from that observation: that the hobbyist/ pro divide is really far more to do with trying to appeal to different audience types than it is about any other intrinsic difference arising from being a hobbyist or pro. What do people think about that more controversial statement? On a side-note: Whilst being a regular performer can give terrific insight into audience behaviour and desires it is not the only way to gain such information, and it can often be a narrow view (you only see the audiences that come to see you!). One can learn about audiences by being one, by being a regular audience member, or by talking to them. Consider the theatre critic! But this is a side-issue. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yes the professional audience member.
The hobbyist/pro divide is about way more and much of it is being illustrated in these threads.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Quote:
On May 13, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: It's hard sometimes as most of us are trying to communicate things as caringly as possible that we were only able to comprehend after working in the trenches for decades. For me, being a professional is not about a single element, a way of approaching an audience, a way of dealing with an effect but experience and a global approach to the craft. Not to disrespect our art, but I feel it's the same as a professional in any field. If you hire a plumber to fix your sink, he doesn't arrive then explain that your's isn't a type of sink he likes to work on, or that he doesn't have the tools for this particular model. He simply assesses the problem, gets the tools he needs from his bag and fixes the sink effectively solving your problem, just as he's probably done hundreds of times before. You never feel it's his first time on the job or that he doesn't know all the answers to any problem you could present to him. He's a professional and has mastered his craft. That's not to say that I as an amateur might not be able to fix the sink myself. I could try and assess the problem, read some books, hopefully be right, go get the tools and try and figure out how to take it apart, replace what was needed then put it back together without anything leaking. I could try, but I would be learning on the job. I could spend a lot of time and money and still have to call in a professional to fix what I started. lol... Ok, I'm not sure the last part is relevant to this discussion but I've done it! Why was he a professional and I wasn't? Experience? Knowledge? Tools? Comfort? Maybe all of these? I can only say that I know it when I see it.
Ray Pierce
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
That might spark an interesting couple of separate threads, Ray.
What is a 'professional'? And Do professionals and hobbyists have anything to learn from each other? Indeed, I am going to start those threads. They sound like they could be fun and illuminating Regarding your plumber analogy and how it intersects with the primary focus of this thread, Ray, I think it is no sufficiently analogous, and there is, perhaps, conflation on whether the sink or the client is the proper analogue to the audience. Consider, in terms of magic performance it isn't the audience who calls the magician, but actually the reverse - the magician creates an act (with an intended audience in mind) then hopes the audience will come and appreciate his art. The magician doesn't arrive at a show and refuse to perform because the sink (audience) is the wrong type for his act (Type A or B etc), but rather he will likely adjust his act to suit the sink (use a differing set of tools for the job). That is far more in keeping with my original audience distinction - the plumber (magician) chooses and uses the right tools (tricks/presentation) for the audience (Type A or B). The hobbyist/ pro distinction is, in this plumber analogy, an irrelevance. Does that make sense? |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On May 13, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote: Okay, that seems to indicate that both hobbyists and pros perform for a given type of audience, depending on whether they're pros or hobbyists. What about the hobbyists who don't perform at all? Me, for instance. I haven't performed magic for a long time, yet magic is still a hobby (or I wouldn't be here). Yet, if I were performing today -- either as a hobby or as a way of making a living -- I'd choose to do so in a way that provides "entertainment" as well as magic. BTW, before someone asks, I don't refer to myself as a magician. The few times it comes up in daily conversation, I just say it's a hobby and leave it at that.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
But George you did perform for a long time didn't you?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Sure. But I just find it easier to keep it simple.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
George, I think for someone who has retired from a profession then the correct title would be retired-X. One may also be a hobbyist whilst being a retired-X. I think that particular thought could be developed over on the appropriate thread I started to discuss the definition of professional and hobbyist . I hope to see your contribution there
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