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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Agreed, 1KJ. Is that the only difference, or do you think some of the other factors I noted in the first post apply too?
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Quote:
On May 14, 2016, mastermindreader wrote: Hello Bob! I hope you are still on "the" line, and, read this. MY PM "box" is getting full again, and I've been so busy that I've not had time to delete "dead" letters. I totally agree with your "comment" above. I might have beaten you to the keyboard (!), but, I've been a SENIOR so long that I could't remember how to spell SOPHOMORIC (!!!) hee hee Jon Racherbaumer and I are wordsmiths, and we usually converse in sesquipedalian terms, much like the late Senator Crandall, if you ever read his "epistles" in the "NEW TOPS", in the sixties. The good Senator corresponded with a much thumbed Roget's Thesaurus at his side. He refused to use his antiquated Webster's, after he had consulted it while writing an article about the "CATCHING DOVES IN A NET" trick. ("Net" was defined as "anything reticulated, or decussated, with interstices between the intersections".) If you happen to be in contact with >>> 1KJ <<<, would you please inform him that there is a vast difference between "childLIKE" and "childISH". I hope that I never become so SENILE that I can't enjoy petting a puppy, or finding a coin behind a tot's ear! (Was Cicero talking about me, when he wrote "DE SENECTUTE"?) I believe that I have had more PROFESSIONAL PERFORMING experience than 1KJ has had LIFE experience. (I WAS a hobbyist for a BRIEF period (when I was about twelve years of age). At thirteen, I became a PART TIME PROFESSIONAL. I earned TWENTY SIX DOLLARS when I booked and performed my first school assembly program at a Junior High School, on October 24, 1945. (some adult men were working a week for that money, then, I believe.) Throughout my high school years, I was earning about about FIFTEEN DOLLARS for my THIRTY MINUTE CLUB ACT, while my "siblings" in school were getting SEVENTY FIVE CENTS AN HOUR, bagging groceries. In my four years in the Navy, after the first four months, I was performing enough shows that I could send my Navy paycheck home to the bank. BTW, At first I thought that "STERCUS TAURI" might have been a better term for my adolescent ears, rather than the word you used for what is commonly found in pastures and stockyards, but, on second thought, I believe your word was much more expressive.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Splitting hairs with a chisel.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts |
I have noticed professional magicians are not worried about the distinction.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Steve:
I'm not sure I follow. Is the hair splitting between pro and hobbyist, or between how the term professional might be used differently in different contexts by different people? |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
Ok, it isn't complicated. If you make a living with magic you are a professional. A hobbyist does magic for the joy of doing magic, and might also be a semiprofessional meaning that they makes some money on the side with magic, but they aren't dependent on it. The other differences exist because when someone is a professional they see magic differently. While a hobbyist sees it just for what suits their own needs/desires, the professional has to see it for what will produce paying and returning customers. Otherwise they would go bankrupt. That obviously changes how you perform magic, and means that you can't just do a bare bones trick. That will impress the audience perhaps, but they won't want to watch it for long. That is ok for a hobbyist, but a professional needs them to remain interested for a longer period of time so they will want to come back.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Zach! There is no such thing as a SEMI professional. Talent buyers aren't 'thrilled" with hiring a "semi" ("semi" means "half") act.
If you have a daytime job, and do shows part time, Your are a PART TIME PROFESSIONAL.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
I had thought that I would come on here one last time to "explain" what a professional does.
Then I decided that neither Al Schneider, Miserable Wizard, or, even the guy who thinks I don't have any experience are worth my time. My answer to your ridiculous questions, and stupid comments are in my book. It's available at a number of dealers. I frankly am thinking that you're just trolling.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Hi Dick!
I don't think it's trolling as much as the inability to distinguish between meaningful conversation and the "STERCUS TAURI" you referred to earlier. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts |
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On May 16, 2016, mastermindreader wrote: Thanks Bob now I had to look that up.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Zach:
Semi-professional is a fairly new term, and whilst it makes some sense wouldn't it actually go against the primary definition of professional (someone who comfortably supports himself through a particular activity)? I'm not sure, then, that it is a useful term. What say you? Dick: I agree that semi-professional is an odd term - see my reply to Zach above. But name calling and an accusation of trolling? Really, for someone of your age and professional standing that is just disappointing. If a discussion is proving so frustrating that a venomous streak starts to ooze out it might just be best to leave. I think you're making the right choice to have that as your last post. No hard feelings and all the best. It's just the Internet, not worth the stress. mastermindreader: Than you for supporting me against the accusation of trolling! Appreciated. Regarding the difference between meaningful discussion and BS, I think it highly subjective. One man's deep debate is another's small talk. Maybe it reflects the different stages of development they are at - what is profound to a novice may be mundane to a master. I trust, then, that people can make their own choices about whether a thread is worth posting in or not - if the topic seems trivial just pass over. I'm somewhat puzzled, I admit, by those who think a topic beneath them, or just BS, yet who take the time to engage anyway. I guess it's just fun, sometimes, to engage in meaningless small talk |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
I used to use the term Semi-Pro, but stopped when it struck me that from the way I define 'Pro', it's kinda like saying that my wife is half pregnant. You are either, I believe, a Pro, that is you are working full time in a field and making your main income there from or you are a "what?"...hobbyist(?), who does shows sometimes in a professional manner (hopefully).
But, you see that's the problem. I have known full time pros that made me cringe that they were working. How did they work so much? They NEVER did repeat shows. They were very clever marketers and had the ability to get gigs despite a so-so reputation. On the other hand I've recounted my friend who is literally one of the finest performers of magic I've ever watched, but he does shows as he likes, charges huge fees to do so, because he doesn't care a wit if he gets the show and would rather get $1000 per or not work. The hilarious thing is that he's so good that he gets his fee all the time and lots of return gigs and referrals. So, the line between the two Pro and Hobbyist blurs. That's why I think it's important to learn from the best you encounter no matter what their field designation. But, I still think that we need the designations. If I'm talking to someone who I KNOW has been a full time pro for 30+ years and has a killer rep IN the community. He does a couple hundred shows a year or more....he's like E.R. Hutton: THAT's they guy I KNOW I want to talk to and listen to and learn what he has to teach. The Hobbyist no matter how good, only to a limited degree and based on what I know about them. It's not a devaluing of the latter it's a way to sensibly use what time I have available. If you stand behind a magic counter for 30+ years and talk to thousands of 'hobbyists' and hundreds of pros, there is simply a huge difference not only 'what' they talk about, but how much the information can be trusted to be helpful. If one guy has experience over say 10 shows a year, no matter what level the show is at: For a buddy, freeby for hospital peds wing, paid, whatever. And, you can talk to a guy who does 6-8 shows a day for weeks at a time working fairs, etc. Who will have the best information: Probably? I've tried to sift through all the clutter and I've come to the following conclusion (possibly..probably...wrong!) that the reason those of us who consider ourselves pros and have been same for decades at a time get annoyed at times by opinion we don't agree with is that we have all had a basic and similar gestalt of the business. We've had similar experiences in the field that's why when pros recount 'experience' you hear the phrase, "Ha! Yep, that happened to me to." Because, it did. Shows are all different....to an extent and contrary wise they are all the same...to an extent. That's why pros almost never get flustered when things go wrong. They've done so many shows that they've literally encountered virtually every possible 'bad' thing that could happen and for the most part know how to turn the bad, not just to 'good', but better....to their advantage! That's one of the hallmarks of the pro and the failing of many, not all, hobbyists. It is literally just a matter of experience. Thus the refrain from many pros: You gotta get on the show. You gotta DO shows. This is, in many ways, a TERRIBLE way to communicate. Trying to 'write' nuance is a bear of a deal. There are no facial cues, no body language, no vocal variance to help sooth a post, etc. And, so....it can seem at times that the tyro is preaching to the expert about things the expert has experienced literally thousands of times in some cases. It can be aggravating. The reason generally I believe is that questions or possible or meant to be questions are stated baldly as IF they are opinion. And, from that point it all just degrades. Best regards,
Brad Burt
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Many excellent thoughts, and I agree with most of what you wrote, Brad. Thank you for the input.
One thought: is the experience of working as a pro, doing paid shows, with a prior reputation, possibly on a stage etc necessarily as useful to the hobbyist who is generally 'performing' for a vastly different type of audience in a very different context? I'm not sure how much cross-over there really is. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts |
Then a hobbyist should know the difference and not speak as if there is crossover.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Quote:
On May 15, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote: Yes. 😏
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Quote:
On May 15, 2016, Dick Oslund wrote: It's not griddle cake--it's cornbread...or is it pan bread...or corn cake...or...
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Lol. That's ... Interesting, Steve.
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Quote:
On May 16, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote: Dear Terrible: Yes. Consider the following analogy or example or whatever it is: Who would you rather have work on you? A surgeon that's done hundreds of whatever cutting it is you need or the guy just finishing his residency? Of the two whose experience no matter the situation would you consider more worthwhile? The Pro is the Pro for one thing because of experience...yes, I'm assuming he's been a Pro for a while... No pro started out as a pro. We almost all started out as "hobbyists" for lack of a better term. The experience of the continuum from beginner to pro is all very similar. I have lost track of how many guys started out with a Nickles to Dimes or a Ball Vase for instance.
Brad Burt
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
I can't really see the surgeon analogy working - both are doing the same thing for the same clients in the same theatre. But the hobbyist and pro magician have all kinds of differences that separate their skill sets, it seems.
For example, it is one thing to work a stage for 45mins for strangers who've paid to see you, and another to 'perform' on a moving train for ten minutes for two people who know you and half want you to fail. I just wondering whether what the professional is gaining expefience at is all that translateable to the hobbyist's different context. |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
The answer is how could it not be? I've done my rope routine for a 1000 people and for one. No difference.
In your example above: Yes and no. The venues are different, but assuming the guy on the train WANTS to do a good job of presentation? No difference. A performance is a performance is a performance. What the pro can offer is how to handle situations the tyro has not yet encountered.
Brad Burt
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