The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » "Too Perfect" Theory (9 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
Ray Pierce
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
2241 Posts

Profile of Ray Pierce
Quote:
On May 28, 2016, ThomasJ wrote:
Derek Dingle used to switch the dirty quarter for one with a hole that was juuuuust small enough to be impossible for the cigarette to pass through. The idea was to steer the audience away from even considering a switch was made, which is typically the immediate (and correct) assumption one will make at the conclusion of cig thru quarter.


Misdirection is ultimately the mastery of the perceptive faculties of your viewer(s) and is what defines our effectiveness as magicians. I must have done the Cigarette through quarter thousands of times over the years in Hollywood Magic and you must develop the timing and required abilities to convince the audience that you have been as fair as possible with every single element of the effect. If they even suspect a switch, the effect is over.

Proper misdirection is likewise allowing them to choose to follow a method that is ultimately proved impossible with no way of backtracking to the actual method by implanting false memories of what actually occurred. For me, this is the ultimate art of magic. I'll also admit that I do this differently depending on who I'm working for. We would frequently get guys in shop from JPL (literally Rocket Scientists!) and I would always steer them towards a more scientific explanation they would ultimately have to admit was impossible by any known laws. Others would require a simpler possibility but you always have to be at least 2 steps ahead of what they will think.

That was a huge advantage of getting to do an effect so many times for different audiences in there is you could see their choices and methods and then determine the best work around for it the next time. Patterns would always evolve with each group of people. The goal for me was always not just to trick or fool them but to short circuit their brains so completely that they would just have to give up and cognitive reasoning and logic. If they couldn't find the words to form a complete sentence after the effect, I had done my job.
Ray Pierce
<BR>www.HollywoodAerialArts.com
ThomasJ
View Profile
Special user
Chicago
743 Posts

Profile of ThomasJ
Quote:
On May 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Does anyone think in lieu of an explanation that anyone over the age of 6 says to themselves "then it must be magic"?


Good point. A small percentage of the population perhaps. Likely very uneducated people I presume.
Gerald Deutsch
View Profile
Elite user
489 Posts

Profile of Gerald Deutsch
Does anyone think in lieu of an explanation that anyone over the age of 6 says to themselves "then it must be magic"?

Many years ago when I was in the service I was in charge of a group of young men and we had an “exercise” to do and I gave instructions to one of the troops. He was defiant and said, “I don’t have to listen to you.”

I picked up a rock, transferred it from my right hand to my left, waved my right hand over the rock as I counted, “one, two, three” and when I opened my left hand there was no rock. It vanished.

I then waved my right hand over this fellow and started counting , “one---“

He screamed, “NO, NO!”

He did what I wanted.

Some people do believe in magic.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19629 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Great story so is your belief that this is the norm?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
ThomasJ
View Profile
Special user
Chicago
743 Posts

Profile of ThomasJ
Gerald can undoubtably speak more to his experience than myself, but my first thought is that, while the spectator knows it's not "'magic" per se, their level of respect for human interaction is enhanced. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

Whether or not the reaction is the norm is a tough call. Was "no" a response to having no explanation other than magic, or a natural response to knowing a ruse was employed, yet the means of which were unknown...?

Respectfully,
T.J.
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8506 Posts

Profile of funsway
As detailed in other posts I performed tens of thousands of magic effects were it was not know that I was a magician and they had no expectation that I was going to demonstrate something considered impossible. The result was not "must be magic," but, " Maybe what I consider to be impossible is wring.

This was good as my purpose was to challenge a business owner's thinking about problems in their business.
My presentation was allegory and visual story. Most often, the discussion of "Real problems' got more serious and honest with the owner offering things like,
"OK, I have considered it impossible to find employees who will work work without supervision. Maybe I'm looking at the problem the wrong way."

Some might say that such a demonstration of the impossible is not "performance magic" since it is not done for entertainment. Them what is it?
I create an illusion through tricker, guile or artifice that cause an intellectual and emotional response from the observer.

I would agree with ThomasJ that this response is the norm, falling back on the Furst Principles of factors that must be present in order for "must be magic" to occur.
Regardless, I have a health respect for the expectations of the audience in any situation, often leading to my not performing a magic effect.

If I do perform I work to create the conditions under which magic will occur, or wait until something unusual does occur and take credit Smile
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19629 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Yes when you force magic on those who are trapped with no choice but to watch entertainment might not be the goal.

But if you think it makes them reexamine their lives in some fundamental way I think that might be the exception to the rule. In your tens of thousands of performances hire many times do you suspect such a think happened?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Ray Pierce
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
2241 Posts

Profile of Ray Pierce
As I think about it, this is sort of what Michael Carbonaro is doing with his hidden camera magic show. He is doing what are essentially magic tricks in a real world setting where no one knows or expects him to be what we would call a magician. Their brains are totally fried with what happens as they're not expecting what they see and can't understand or even comprehend what is happening. Even though they don't know that it is technically magic, they are still totally fooled (or whatever politically correct term we want to ascribe to it).

I just think there might be some interesting commonalities there.
Ray Pierce
<BR>www.HollywoodAerialArts.com
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8506 Posts

Profile of funsway
Quote:
On May 29, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
when you force magic on those who are trapped with no choice but to watch



where o where did you fabricate that from? Do you have experience with forcing magic on people you might share (personal experience as requested in the OP).

You attempt to force your opinions on everyone stated as laws, but is hardly magic and doesn't fool anyone and far from entertaining. Easier to just make things up, right?

Why not just admit there are aspects of performance magic you do not understand?

Use the Search Engine to explore earlier posts -- that is what it is for.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19629 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
I would admit freely that doing magic in the way you describe is forign to me. Have many times. Oddly enough you do not do the same and admit that there are areas that YOU are absolutely clueless about.

Oh the irony.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8506 Posts

Profile of funsway
I haven't seen than, Ray, and there may be some commonalities. Mine were one-on-one with small business owners during business evaluations.

The point is that when their "mind is fried" they do not conclude "must be magic" or even attempt to reconstruct. Instead they question the concept of "impossible" --
most often examining what they consider to be "impossible for them."

I often told stories as allegory too in order for them to consider a problem for a different perspective without "instructing them."
The bets way to get someone to reconsider a false perception is to challenge it with another false perception.

I also used "found objects" in their office or meeting place and developed many new sleights and handling for small objects. Some I later learned were similar to an already published move.
Some can be translated into effects or moves for coins, balls, etc.

Sadly, I cannot observe an effect without instantly thinking of a way to improve it, i.e. make it more magical, but usually just make it less entertaining.
Most would not play well for a large audience and therefor not suitable for a person trying to lake a living out of performance magic.

All right if you do not consider what I did to "be magic." What is it then?

Above you offer "essentially magic tricks." Please explain. If one uses trickery to create an illusion of overcoming the impossible, why isn't magic?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19629 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Why is it you ate entitled to opinions about things you never came close to doing yet I am not? Just more irony LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
8506 Posts

Profile of funsway
Please explain what I have not come close to doing, Danny. Do no guess or project or make thing up. Help me understand your anger and disrespect.

This forum is "Food for Thought," and the thread about a bit of magic theory. Why am I not allowed opinions about either?

You are certainly allowed opinions about magic and magic theory, yet you never offer these. I have never suggested otherwise. Instead you assault the opinions of others.

I keep waiting to see an opinion of yours and the experience that led to it. How many sleights have you created and shared with others?
How many magic effects created by you are now being performed around the world? How many professional magicians have you mentored?
What are the titles of some of your published books -- I might like to read some.

It is not a matter of whether or not a person has a right to an opinion, Danny -- it is whether that opinion offers something of potential value to another.

If you do not find value in what I post, why not stop reading them?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19629 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
First off forget anger. None here. YOU are projecting that. So really get over yourself. I think disrespect is what YOU show.

Right as usual you forget ACTUAL stage experience in your list. YOU have none. Doing allegedly tens of thousands of one off tricks is not stage experience. Sorry to break it to you.

So I ask you why not stop reading my posts? You say all these things yet NEVER apply that to yourself. Perhaps that is the problem some have with you don't you think?

You then go on to offer opinions about things you have never done. Then correct the opinions of those who have done it. Finding the problem yet?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
26943 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Quote:
On May 28, 2016, ThomasJ wrote:
Quote:
On May 28, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Does anyone think in lieu of an explanation that anyone over the age of 6 says to themselves "then it must be magic"?


Good point. A small percentage of the population perhaps. Likely very uneducated people I presume.


You can test that yourself with people by doing a trick straight up in character as a magic-user and set back and let them respond. "I'd like to show you something I found in a book last night." If you get as far as them asking "that's a trick, right?" you've got your answer. Some folks hold dearly to notions of paranormal, supernatural... and so it is that we all see the world through different eyes.

Who turned the word "deceive" into "fool"?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Ray Pierce
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
2241 Posts

Profile of Ray Pierce
Quote:
On May 29, 2016, funsway wrote:
The point is that when their "mind is fried" they do not conclude "must be magic" or even attempt to reconstruct. Instead they question the concept of "impossible" -- most often examining what they consider to be "impossible for them."


That's interesting, no, I don't feel they think of "magic" right away. They simply question their own reality. I think we as magicians have to frame it as magic to create the correct theatrical context for their entertainment. In the case of Michael Carbonaro, they are not at all entertained but simply confused. I'm not sure if this quote is attributed properly but I always thought it was Vernon who said, "Confusion is not illusion." In Michael's particular television show he is using their confusion to create entertainment for the home viewer because we understand that he is using the framework of magic to place them in this state and create the situation for the home viewer to enjoy.

Quote:
All right if you do not consider what I did to "be magic." What is it then?


I've never seen your work in person so I don't have any particular preconceptions about what you do or how others might label it. In fact, labels aren't at all necessary if you're not trying to market it or communicate with others. Sometimes the context is helpful if you're discussing it in a group as an aid in discussion where pre-existing categories are somewhat already defined. As a communicator, my job on stage (or I guess anywhere for that matter) isn't to speak but to be understood. I might not need labels or categories to create art for myself but it does help as I try and explain myself in terms people can understand and relate to. I might use totally different language, terminology and framing depending on the intended audience I'm trying to reach.

Quote:
Above you offer "essentially magic tricks." Please explain. If one uses trickery to create an illusion of overcoming the impossible, why isn't magic?


I think what we perceive as Magic is all about context. Optical illusions can trick or fool people, but as magicians, we need to create a context for deception that makes it into magic and hopefully also interesting, entertaining and possibly even thought provoking. That is our job as a storyteller to not just to give the audience details but to frame and sculpt it into something captivating. That is the difference in a well crafted story and a list of details documenting an event. That's the difference in an observation and a well crafted joke as well.

The spoken word has been a means passing down history from one generation to another since language was created. I'm sure there were many of our ancestors who had wonderful memories and could list thousands of details and facts concerning past events in their lives and those of their forefathers. Yet it was the master storytellers that could craft these boring facts into intoxicating tales that would stay with us and be continually retold over and over. This power to create powerful imagery and memories is why some stories stand the test of time and others are long forgotten.

I hope it is the same for great magic.
Ray Pierce
<BR>www.HollywoodAerialArts.com
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
26943 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Quote:
On May 18, 2016, Koolmagic114 wrote:
...
Can a trick be "too perfect"


You find out with audience feedback. Theory comes in handy when what you expect does not match what you find. "Too Perfect" in this case refers to an effect which indicates its method.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
19629 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
I can just can not imagine singers or guitar players sitting about wondering if they were too much in tune. Or a comedian wringing his hands over being too funny. For that matter any group of professional whatever who worry they did too good at job at their chosen professionals.

Magicians, and hobbyists are an odd lot.

Again I say if they think method look at your presentation. If they are entertained enough odds are pretty good they are not method hunting.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
26943 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Musicians and singers don't usually mime their performances (okay maybe Dolly Parton did Yakkety Sax as a joke).
Comics don't usually get the benefit of giant "applause" signs and a crowd full of folks ready to laugh on cue.
Unlike those folks - magicians don't (usually?) have real magic to rely on and so have do something more (rather than less) than what's evident to the audience.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Ray Pierce
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
2241 Posts

Profile of Ray Pierce
Quote:
On May 30, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:

Magicians, and hobbyists are an odd lot.


lol... well, yeah, there is that.
Ray Pierce
<BR>www.HollywoodAerialArts.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » "Too Perfect" Theory (9 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.18 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL