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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Problem with repeating shows with the main clients watching each repeat (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 27, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
This brings up a very significant area in our entertainment business - laymen in the position of hiring, booking and/or directing entertainment. This happens regularly, more so in some performance markets than others, but when you have regular people (non-industry or professionals) in a position of control in either booking or production of entertainment this happens. We see it all the time in the festival market, school committees, fundraising, or any other performance market where there is a volunteer committee or position. Especially today with cutbacks and double duty employees, staffers and volunteers.

These can be the most difficult (and pain in the **s) people and gigs to deal with. They have false or unrealistic views and expectations. The other problem is some low-end performers accommodate them, then they therefore expect others to as well.

As some have said here communication and I will add, education is key. The are not insiders and in reality they should not be in charge or control of entertainment. More so not the entertainers. Of course where trade secrets become involved such as in magic or mentalism, it becomes an even deeper issue.

Some people, depending on their choice of performance markets, never have to deal with this, others it can be more common and frequent that most realize.

This is much different than say the kids party market where you are only dealing with a lay parent(s), as these people in some of these other markets (mentioned above) have position and authority to have some say and control over the venue or event.


The key is to simply educate then as to what it is you do
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Ray Pierce
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Quote:
On May 27, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
The key is to simply educate then as to what it is you do


Exactly. I always say that 50% of my job is education. Working with pros is easy as they're typically realistic with their expectations. Working with what we've called "laymen bookers" requires being the expert and helping them to understand how we can bring their dreams to life. For me, this happens less often in magic and much more often in the other wing of my production company where we design, rig and produce aerial and circus events. Everyone wants these elaborate effects with people flying all over the place but we have to bring them back to reality based on their budgets.

When people call, I always consider myself first as a consultant on their team trying to help them realize their content. Then eventually I will become the producer/talent that can execute on their creative.
Ray Pierce
<BR>www.HollywoodAerialArts.com
Mindpro
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I agree and regularly say this is part of standard business operations as well. In reality it is a great way to better position yourself and separate yourself from others, while preventing these types of occurrances.
plainman007
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On May 27, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:

As in no way to do what he wants in 3 days.



Thanks, got you.
plainman007
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I concur with most of whats been said above. But the quizzical thing is that for me Ive mostly experienced this with event managers only. Direct clients such as product VPs, CEOs, Cultural Clubs etc have us dealing with individuals/private committees who aren't part of the entertainment industry and I say this with firm conviction they have been the most amicable, understanding clients and WITHOUT false expectations. Most of them have only said "we didn't expect so much of equipment" when 2-3 trucks of equipment land up at the venue.

Paradoxical as it may sound, the cheapest and most uneducated imbeciles to deal with in my case have been people from the entertainment/hospitality industry and the event management sector. Complete imbeciles who don't understand and wont follow your simple rider to the word and miss out on stuff and then put up a sorry face, but ONE THING they expect the show to be beyond the clouds. And I'm telling you, these are the hardcore top level event management companies I'm talking about.

Maybe its also a psychological culture owing to particular geographic locations where the attitude is different in each country. To book expensive and large scale acts/performers, the low rung imbeciles in the company hierarchy are the ones who call and mediate. They cant even speak properly, you should see the way they stutter (not out of medical condition) and barf out pure unadulterated ignorance. They also don't know anything about lighting and sound and stagecraft which makes it even more of a nightmare to deal with. They are more of sub-contract brokers.
Ray Pierce
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Quote:
On May 27, 2016, plainman007 wrote:
And I'm telling you, these are the hardcore top level event management companies I'm talking about.


This very well might be the top people you've worked with but I can assure you that these are not the actual top tier people in the industry. It is both an honor and pleasure to work with top pros who have a reputation for excellence and prove their abilities in each event.

Now again, these are the top international event management companies producing multi-million dollar events for top corporations. From initial creative development meetings to pre-production, to tech scouts with the entire team to actual on site production, they are the best of the best and no detail is left undone.

I have worked with the lower tier people as well where you have to educate them on how to make everything work, but again that is my value to them as I can make an event work in spite of anything they do by being largely self contained to eliminate any chance of them messing things up. Experience teaches us everything if we can learn from it.
Ray Pierce
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Blair Marshall
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I'm wondering if the difference is perhaps cultural, and somewhat regional? What is considered "top professional" in the U.S. with regards to theatre/showrooms/theme park production, and event production etc. may be quite different to the folks you encounter, and should expect to deal with, in Sri Lanka when staging/producing your shows for them.

Blair
plainman007
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Quote:
On May 28, 2016, Ray Pierce wrote:
This very well might be the top people you've worked with but I can assure you that these are not the actual top tier people in the industry. It is both an honor and pleasure to work with top pros who have a reputation for excellence and prove their abilities in each event.


You might be speaking for yourself and your aspirations. You seem more of a circus background than stage illusion from the looks of your website. So I don't see how your claims of BIG companies and experiences relates to a stage illusionist in my country. I can assure you these are THE TOP people in MY COUNTRY, some owned by 1st tier celebrities in my country. I admit they are not as developed maybe as in the USA so that might be a factor. They are not international top names, I don't live in a fable. Also illusion isn't a very understood and worked with industry in my country. From what you claim, you must be referring to the international MJ and Justin Bieber promoter standards who do world tours with millions of dollars. And there are dime a dozen performers who talk about them and the pleasure of working about them etc. But I'm talking of the reality of working with top of the line guys in 'my country'. An experienced exponent would know that there are differences country wise.

Quote:
On May 28, 2016, Ray Pierce wrote:
I have worked with the lower tier people as well where you have to educate them on how to make everything work


Now that I believe and is realistic.

Bottom line is I'm just sharing what it is like in my country. Its rhetorical and I'm not looking for a solution etc, just sharing experiences.
plainman007
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Quote:
On May 28, 2016, Blair Marshall wrote:
I'm wondering if the difference is perhaps cultural, and somewhat regional? What is considered "top professional" in the U.S. with regards to theatre/showrooms/theme park production, and event production etc. may be quite different to the folks you encounter, and should expect to deal with, in Sri Lanka when staging/producing your shows for them.

Blair


Kudos !. I couldn't have expressed it better. Over and out.
Ray Pierce
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Quote:
On May 28, 2016, plainman007 wrote:

You might be speaking for yourself and your aspirations. You seem more of a circus background than stage illusion from the looks of your website. So I don't see how your claims of BIG companies and experiences relates to a stage illusionist in my country. I can assure you these are THE TOP people in MY COUNTRY, some owned by 1st tier celebrities in my country. I admit they are not as developed maybe as in the USA so that might be a factor. They are not international top names, I don't live in a fable. Also illusion isn't a very understood and worked with industry in my country. From what you claim, you must be referring to the international MJ and Justin Bieber promoter standards who do world tours with millions of dollars. And there are dime a dozen performers who talk about them and the pleasure of working about them etc. But I'm talking of the reality of working with top of the line guys in 'my country'. An experienced exponent would know that there are differences country wise.


I must apologize as I had no idea it wasn't in this country. I fully understand that every country has regional and local qualities that change everything.

Although I do produce and package circus and aerial shows internationally, I made my living for about 30 years as an illusionist travelling internationally including touring with my own show playing about 30 cities in Canada every year, 5,000 to 10,000 seat arenas across Mainland China, 15,000 seats in Moscow as well as Vegas, Reno, Tahoe, Atlantic City and mainly doing corporate one nighters around this country. Even though I don't do as much magic as I do aerial and circus events now, I'm still working with event managers doing many shows every year with a wide range of production teams. I've worked with the very best and yes... some that needed a LOT of help!

I do understand your position more now and I'm sorry for the confusion as I thought you were referring to the best in the US.

Good luck on your journey!
Ray Pierce
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Kevin Ridgeway
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Plainman I can assure you, whatever you might THINK you have come to know of Ray Pierce and his experience & expertise is far short of what he has actually done and accomplished and what he continues to accomplish and create literally daily. Maybe you have heard of Disney & Imagineering.
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Ray Pierce
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Lol... thanks Kevin, It was my mistake. I really thought he was speaking of the people in the US that I had worked with. For some reason I missed the fact that it was in Sri Lanka which although I've always wanted to visit, I have zero experience with their talent and event production companies so I was speaking out of turn.
Ray Pierce
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 26, 2016, plainman007 wrote:
When a client wants you to perform a series of shows in a day. Say its a small entertainment park and they want your stage appearance there but were asking if you would do 3 or 4 shows continuously. Now this might be a client trying to extract the maximum or expecting that bulk means they could get a cheaper deal for themselves. Secondly it kind of belittles the original appearance and takes away from its value (i feel, I might be wrong though) and also for a show relying on heavy psychology its not adviseable to repeat the show multiple times in a day, unless ofcourse I take 3 different acts with me. They will think a performer coming in can anyway do 3 more repeats and it wont cost much Smile. I would want to charge them 3 times as much but clients never get that logic into their heads.

When I perform auditoriums with my own exclusive productions I have actually done 6 shows a day without a problem where only the ushers get to see the show repeatedly. But here is a situation where the key players/clients (the ones who are actually paying for the show) will be present for all the repeats that too on the same day. So what I feel will happen is that the client will end up ruining their own impression, 1 by seeing the same presentation it gets old for them, 2 its technically not good either to allow repeat viewings. These are the people you want more impressed than the audience. So how would you handle such a request considering the various angles ive mentioned.

In 35 years of performing I have come to understand that more than the audience, you need to impress the key people who actually fork out the budgets. Now matter what you impress the audience with if the key producer of the show is not impressed then its not productive. Example: say you manufactured the best baby diapers, will you aim to impress the baby or the parents who buy them ?. Ive seen this happen during some shows where the audience is floored, but the client is not, because the imbecile insisted in standing around backstage or due to some performing situations gets to know some operative methods (you probably asked them for certain provisions in the rider and they co-ordinate this for you and then put 2 & 2 together) and are so childish to feel let down because its not REAL MAGIC even though the audience LOVED the show. But unfortunately its not that audience that will be repeat booking the act but this dullard.

Ive had situations of such bird brained clients telling my team members that "hey I think I know how that thing is being done" without understanding that they have become part producers of the show. Do you think THE MIRAGE staff/producers don't know where the tiger disappears to in Siegfried & Roys show. The whole theater is rigged with their knowledge and cant be avoided. It takes a level of technical maturity for a backstage member/producer to understand that we arent working real magic here.

So to get back to the main question at hand. What would you do for a clients request which might jeopardize the 'MAGIC' in their minds.

PS: Kindly pardon the long post.


See part of the problem is that you are not telling us that youthat you are speaking about your country but it comes off as sorry of a university truth about the amusement park industry.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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I think people forget this is an American-based board/forum and while it welcomes everyone, most members are American and their discussions are based on the same. Unless otherwise specified the default perception is that of US. When I was a member of a UK forum, I would always remember that it was their board/forum and the standard or default mindset what that of theirs. I too missed him being from Sri Lanka.
Blair Marshall
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Actually no one "missed" where plainman007 was from, I just could not grasp what he was dealing with so I checked out some of his previous posts on other threads which helped me understand a little more what was up.

In N.A. it actually happens in some cultural communities when you work for/with them, but thankfully (?) not in the mainstream.

Blair
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plainman007
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This is not about event managers per say. Its just about clients in genereal who get an opportunity to STICK AROUND you for all show repeats. For example a luxury hotel booking you for a repeat stage show. The hotel management tends to stick around you and keep on observing your every move. More out of curiosity I assume. So this becomes very difficult to do certain setups. Or from a mentalism point of view, it becomes very difficult to work with things like p*esho*. And you cant do that much in advance to the show either to be evasive.

You cant shooo them away, and even if you do, they move out of backstage but keep oserving from front stage. To give you an actual experience. A large luxury hotel booked a series of shows, the GM of the hotel who happened to "hang around" said it was like not very impressive bec he saw the p*esho* (that was immature of him) though the act went over excellent with the crowd. But still he had a sense of being let down. Smile. Though they don't know the details of the process. Still the fact that they saw 'something' makes it umimpressive TO THEM.
Al Kazam the Magic Man
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I've lived and worked in Asia for a long time years ago. I"ve performed in India and I've visited Sri Lanka. Some of the problem might be that they have "Magicians" up on a pedestal similar to a Guru etc. Maybe not so much Sri Lanka which is predominately Buddhist. Some really believe in "Magic", whereas in reality they have been duped by those so called "Gurus". I saw many people passing themselves off as having special powers and gifts. Total BS.

IF these bookers were really the TOP of the TOP, I'm guessing that they have not had the international or western style experience and understanding of what it really takes to properly do our job which is to "Entertain" the audience. Seems that they haven't got that part right.

I would also guess that they may be like you've mentioned as they may be able to get other local talent for a very cheap price compared to yourself. Some places in Asia where I worked a contract was just a piece of paper that was easily looked over and changed without much thought at all. Happened to me twice.

All I can say is good luck. Seems like you're going to need it.
Al Kazam --> Magic guy in Perth Australia
Dannydoyle
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I have worked for one of the largest resort companies in the world for 10 years. I spend weeks at a time, and so do other guys of all types and we have never once heard this complaint.

Most hotel people I know, and it is a lot of them, do not think like you say. It is not at all generally true in the industry.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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I'd say your p*esho* needs some work. If its that visible that management or even audience members realize whats happening it's not happening very well. This almost seems like its making you a bit paranoid. Mentalism can be different than magic, repeatable magic can be expected. But mentalism becomes more suspect. I would drop any need for p*esho*.
Dannydoyle
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The norm by the way in hotels and cruise ships IS repeatability. Most hotels are on a weekly cycle with food and beverage and entertainment. They WANT dependability and consistency. Amusement parks WANT shows that are the same every day generally and multiple times a day.

These just seem like such odd problems.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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