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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Can you be a magician and mentalist?? (127 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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SleepyMagic
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I'm likely to anger a lot of people by writing this....its 3am in the morning so please if my English is a bit off its because I'm tired...

Anyway.. I've heard many many many times on the Café people saying how you can't be a magician and mentalist at the same time due to the immense contrast in the performances....however I disagree to am extent...IMO you can definitely be a magician and mentalist at the same time...HOWEVER,you have to make sure your audience knows the difference between both and you need to separate them so as not to oerfrom mentalism whilst the audience thinking its magic....I know 99% of people will disagree with me

And I would love to hear your opinions...

Sleepy
Last Laugh
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If you can just call it 'Mental Magic', nobody will disagree with you.
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SleepyMagic
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Quote:
On May 30, 2016, Last Laugh wrote:
If you can just call it 'Mental Magic', nobody will disagree with you.


Hahah...but mental magic and mentalism are very different IMO

Sleepy
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What's the difference?

That might answer your question.
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mastermindreader
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Sleepymentalism-

Your question doesn't anger me in the least, but it is more than a bit frustrating.

By your own admission just a few months ago, you are pretty much a beginner when it comes to learning mentalism. The question you ask here has been discussed to death, and probably beyond, on this forum since its creation. You, yourself, asked it just a few months ago.

There are very fundamental and sound reasons why mentalists never mix the two unless they are already well-known as mentalists. And even they will rarely use more than a single brief magic trick. And when a magician tries to do mentalism in his magic act it will simply be perceived as another magic trick. (The fact that many magicians in recent years have started to do this is one of the basic causes of the "trivialization" that you've probably seen discussed at length in other thread.)

I'm certainly not going to write extensively on the topic here, because I've already written thousands of words about it in the Café over the years. I'm sure that this isn't the first time you've heard this, but here it is again- use the search function.
Michael Zarek
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You can do what you want...
Doesn't mean it's a good idea though.
Reader discretion is advised.
Mindpro
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I agree, this has been discussed to death and ends up coming though in may threads. It has been well documented and explained to death as well.

Forgive me if I am incorrect and mixing you up with so many other newer guys recently, but aren't you the guy that is only fourteen years old? Either way, it doesn't matter but to think you understand mentalism in this short amount of time is wrong. Therefore your perceptions may be without proper perception and premise. Also it is without performance experience, so at this point it's nothing more than theory and opinions you're thinking.

This almost sound like baiting if you know 99% will disagree with you and know it's been discussed to death. Magic and mentlaism are complete opposite in premise and foundation. That too is well documented. To think you understand it in such a short amount of time is insulting to those that are taking the time to help and educate you and that have actual years of performing experience. My guess is you also are not familiar with stage and are likely from the UK, correct?

Use the search, that will keep you busy for a few months to years if you can take it.
Sean Giles
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Why is it likely that he's from the UK? Not looking for disagreement but just interested in why you would surmise that.
Last Laugh
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The time he posted is a clue... But I think he's said so previously.
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IAIN
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Lets be very clear here, magicians mixing in a little bit of mentalism is something that happens everywhere, the major sites that promote the mixing are American too...

If a kid is influenced or set an example by what he sees on tv and via social media, then yeah, they're going to think its ok or ask questions...

Search function though will give a huge amount of threads...
IAIN
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@sleepy - if you are taking something Derren brown said on devils picture book, then you are kinda warping his point...and you also have to see that it was a different time and the context was different too...

And its a basic difference, people equate magic with sleights and know uts not real, that there's a trick to it...

With mentalism, there is an element of plausibility and possibility that it might be real..putting both side by side means that the people involved think "ok, so this bit is just tricks, and now I'm being told THIS bit isn't a trick? Which is which? Its all a trick wh...cos if you can do it for real, why bother with tricks?!"
Ray Pierce
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The odd exception to this seems to be the celebrity performer. Kreskin always seemed to be able to shift back and forth as does David Blaine and several others with no quetion. I guess they are considered exceptional characters and are allowed to bridge that odd gap. I'm a consultant for one of the Middle East's most famous magicians who just filmed a full season of TV shows that aired in many countries over there. He is very well known every where he goes. He was able to very convincingly shift into non-magic tests and it was accepted very believably as it wasn't even considered by the other celebrities he was performing for as a "trick". It was perceived as his special power and ability. He mastered the hands and mastered the mind. My belief is that this just has to do with exceptional conviction and believability. He happens to be very charismatic and could translate everything I gave him into a very powerful and believable performance that transcended what people thought of as simple "magic". This happened to the degree that many thought his powers were demonic although that was largely cultural in nature. He was simply an exceptional performer who could pull it off. Isn't that ultimately the problem? Don't mentalists tend to be better actors and more believable performers than magicians? Ultimately all is acting and I find that is the mitigating factor in creating believability in mentalism.
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IAIN
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I actually think that magicians are missing a trick, pardon the pun...

Because a) whoever is bold enough to try and reclaim the word magician in the truest sense of the word, and its tarot undertones too, will have some interesting opportunities...

B) you can do so many interesting things, that its a shame its focusing on sponge balls and ropes...they can freeze water, create fire, transmute, use stories...they don't need ANY mentalism...they just need to rethink what they are doing and elevate it in both a modern and interesting way...

That's why Blaine was such a success...

Magic doesn't need to add mentalism into the mix, it just needs to take itself seriously...
Axel
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I'd like to add my two cents to the "discussed to death"-theme.
While this is right and there are probably hundreds of threads about this topic, the reason that people ask
this questions over and over again might not just be laziness.
Although this most certainly plays some part in it.
But I also think that it speaks of a personal dilemma that people have ESPECIALLY when they're younger and relatively
new into mentalism.
And the urge to discuss your thoughts and doubts about certain themes that come with the love of mentalism
can't be satisfied by just reading.
Just to be clear: I don't say that people shouldn't read as much as they can and think twice before they ask a question that
might have been answered hundreds of times before.
But as a teacher I know that certain things can not be understood by just reading.
You have to express your doubts, questions and opinions in relation to other people.
Like it or not. This forum is a place where beginners come when they start to look into magic and mentalism.
They will ask the same questions again and again for the next 200 years. Just as young students ask me the same questions over and over again.
And I don't tell them to read a book where it is all written down. I discuss it with them as good as I can as if it was something new to me.
That is part of the teacher job.
And it is also a small part of what this forum is about.
That doesn't mean that you have to take on the roll of a teacher here if you're experienced as a mentalist.
Just ignore these questions and take part in discussions you enjoy.
But the standard reaction to this questions: "Use the search function" might be missing a point.
Just my thoughts...
All the best,
Axel
IAIN
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I kind of agree, but also don't...😃

The quicker someone learns to self educate, research, read, search and then spend time contemplating it all is absolutely necessary...THEN it can evolve into better, healthier questions...

But the basics, the differences, it all here, just search for it and make notes...
SleepyMagic
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Thanks for all the responses.... I have used the search function for this question before but it didn't fill me the way I wanted it to..anyway.. I am fairly new to mentalism as most for you know...however I've been doing magic for 7 years... And I'm really not sure if I should make a transition, stay doing magic or do mentalism and Magic...I mean it can be done...David Copperfield did both...yh....

Sleepy
funsway
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Quote:
On May 31, 2016, IAIN wrote:

Magic doesn't need to add mentalism into the mix, it just needs to take itself seriously...


easy to agree with!

Yet, my first thought is, "How to find an audience that takes magic seriously, or even takes itself seriously?

Folks buying a ticket to see a mentalist do seem to take the venture seriously -- prepared to participate in demonstrations of "other than normal" mental abilities.

What do folks expect when they go to see a magician perform, or are assaulted on the street by a performer?
Many threads on the Café suggest they just wish to be entertained and have little concept of what a good magic effect would look like.

Methinks there is too much of allowing the tail to wag the dog.

Certainly, if can't captivate an audience with magic effects, tossing in mentalism isn't going to help.
The "mystic arts" offer a unique way of communicating with an audience, changing perspectives and even instilling hope and excitement. (opinion)

Be clear on what you are attempting to communicate, and follow.

I see that Iain has another post up. Read that also.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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IAIN
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But you are not Copperfield and you don't have his prestige or set up...and he is only known as a magician/illusionist...have a think as to why he isn't thought of as a mentalist...

Explore who you are, why not just throw yourself head long into just one or the other and explore it as fully as possible?
Slim King
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Copperfield is a fantastic Mentalist. He is also know as a world class magician.
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IAIN
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He is not known as a mentalist. Please stop your trolling on every thread, its boring. And yes, we've seen the book test clip.
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