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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Can you be a magician and mentalist?? (127 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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THB
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Its hard to reply to that as I don't think its an accurate analogy Smile

Each person has to establish his own learning strategies, and if your ask advice to mentors who are dogmatic...ish in their views, and you listen tp them, you rob yourself of the potential for discovering by yourself why they were right.... or wrong...

So basically, can you?? yes of course..

Should you? Find out...

Methink
:)
mastermindreader
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Sure, everyone should learn the hard way.
Decomposed
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A mentalism effect treated as a magic trick is about the worse thing that could happened to the creative time and effort the inventor put in. Smile
MagicalEducator
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So they should stop selling to magicians. Perhaps if mentalists cherished their secrets as much as they say they do then they should stop selling their wares on Amazon. This adds more to the trivialization of mentalism than any magician doing mental magic. Apparently the magic trick of the year is a mentalism tool. Seems a bit unusual doesn't it?

As for learning things the "hard way" that sounds prescriptive and assumes every student can and should learn the same way. They don't.

Jeff
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Decomposed
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Quote:
On Jun 25, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:
So they should stop selling to magicians. Perhaps if mentalists cherished their secrets as much as they say they do then they should stop selling their wares on Amazon. This adds more to the trivialization of mentalism than any magician doing mental magic. Apparently the magic trick of the year is a mentalism tool. Seems a bit unusual doesn't it?

As for learning things the "hard way" that sounds prescriptive and assumes every student can and should learn the same way. They don't.

Jeff


Interesting Jeff. I see where you are coming from. But that is all about money; the root of all evil. I remember back when even most magicians did not know what mentalism was. Heck, that is like the public. Unless one is a psychic and make that claim, a lot of folks just lump it all into the magic arts. Call it a mindreading show to the public and some may even be steered away. Call it Mindreading and Magic and you may have more customers....Not saying this for the top in the field but the middle of the pack paid performer. I remember going to Vegas to see a mentalist and the sign right out front stated Mindreading and Magic Show. I went in and saw a mentalism performance, not one magic trick.
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mastermindreader
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On Jun 25, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


...As for learning things the "hard way" that sounds prescriptive and assumes every student can and should learn the same way. They don't.

Jeff


OBVIOUSLY people learn in different ways. My, "Sure, everyone should learn the hard way," comment was a sarcastic reply to the post preceding it, which suggested that you should not listen to the advice of "mentors." It seems that you missed that. (The "sure" should have tipped you off.)
THB
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On Jun 25, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
which suggested that you should not listen to the advice of "mentors."


??? did I say that???

strange shortcut.
mastermindreader
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if your ask advice to mentors who are dogmatic...ish in their views, and you listen to them, you rob yourself of the potential for discovering by yourself why they were right.... or wrong...


So more accurately, you said that people shouldn't listen to the advice of mentors they deem to be dogmatic. So I have to ask, why did they select them as mentors to begin with?

The problem might be that we have different definitions of "mentor." Here's the way I understand the word:

Quote:
MENTOR

noun: mentor; plural noun: mentors

1.
an experienced and trusted adviser.
"he was her friend and mentor until his death in 1915"
synonyms: adviser, guide, guru, counselor, consultant; confidant(e)
"his political mentors"
THB
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Ok, let me be precise, then I'll stop as I fear this is becoming a debate on word accuracy rather than a debate of ideas.

A beginner asks advice to experimented "mentalists" on a forum. They cannot really be mentors, as this is all done electronically on a forum, there is no personal relationship, so no MENTORING.

the experimented adviser tells the beginner,

1/ make the effect your own, as "COPYING" is a bad thing. ( I couldn't find a quote but its all over the forum)
At the same time he's also told

2/ don't DO MENTAL MAGIC. as
Quote:
On Jun 24, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
A mentalism effect treated as a magic trick is about the worse thing that could happened to the creative time and effort the inventor put in. Smile


The beginner being a beginner finds it very difficult to concile those two concepts.

he's basically just been told: " Beginner, don't be a beginner. instead, be experimented like me right now, what you're doing is crap as its only mental magic, mentalism is a much higher form of art than what you are doing"

So my advice is:

1/ ask advice
2/ ask more
3/ digest
4/ throw it all away
5/ make your own stuff
6/ and if it displeases the experiments people, ............ Behhhhh who cares.....

:)

My feeling..

:)
MagicalEducator
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Quote:
On Jun 25, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 25, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


...As for learning things the "hard way" that sounds prescriptive and assumes every student can and should learn the same way. They don't.

Jeff


OBVIOUSLY people learn in different ways. My, "Sure, everyone should learn the hard way," comment was a sarcastic reply to the post preceding it, which suggested that you should not listen to the advice of "mentors." It seems that you missed that. (The "sure" should have tipped you off.)


NEVER argue with a lawyer. They're always right even when they're not. But I''m sure that a Master Mindreader would know that. There's also a difference between being mentored and being a disciple. The former still thinks for themselves.
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Alan Wheeler
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The >>>>>>>>> signifies two items are paired or parallel on a chart of believability.

Real, closed-eye psychic>>>>>>>>>>>>Real, practicing Occultist
Psychic charlatan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Occultist charlatan
Psychic entertainer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magick entertainer?
Mentalist with disclaimer>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre magician with disclaimer
Mind-reading magician>>>>>>>>>>>>Realistic magician (Blaine-style)
Mental-magic-trickster>>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre-themed-magic trickster
Magician>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magician

Also note: The times, they are a'changing. In the 19th/early 20th century, magic shows and science shows and spiritualist shows had the same mysterious tone, and a much larger percent of the audience--including Sir Arthur Conan Doyle--found even magic shows more believable. Part of the "Magic Light" movement of Don Alan funsters probably comes from changing audience expectations.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
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mastermindreader
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Actually, the term "psychic entertainer" is simply an umbrella term that covers mentalists, bizarrists, hypnotists, readers, and allied artists.

The word "psychic, in this instance, is used to denote "of the mind."
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THB-

I'd simply add a 3(a) to your list:

"If it sounds reasonable, put it to the test under performance conditions. THEN decide whether to discard it or to experiment with alternatives."

One doesn't learn mentalism simply by thinking about it.


Magical Educator- It's clear, based on his last post, that THB did not intend to use the word "mentor" in its usual sense, but was simply referring to those who give opinions in Internet forums when someone asks for advice. OF COURSE that kind of advice must be evaluated as all opinions are not created equal.

And note that I'm immune to cheap shots and wise-cracks about lawyers. Lawyers simply advocate on behalf of their clients. Judges, juries and appellate courts decide who is right or wrong.
MagicalEducator
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Bob,

What makes one comment sarcasm and another a cheap shot? It appears to be simply who says it. Lawyers don't often admit their argument is wrong. A previous comment advise that all PEA members believe in the separation to magic and mentalism and yet I've had experience seeng 3 different members do just that. Perhaps that's the official policy but my own experience has been very different. A gambling demonstration followed by mentalism...hmm?

All of this wordplay is subjective. One of your books is called Artful Mentalism. If mentalism is indeed an art then that would leave one's involvement very open to interpretation. In another post it's mentioned that if a magician makes a mistake a joke will cover it but that if a mentalist makes a mistake then it's catastrophic. I would argue that it might only enhance things if a miss were to occur. A previous post also suggests that magic sleights are easier than the sleights used by mentalists. To suggest this sounds rather elitist. I was doing some pre show billet work and when I checked with another cast member (my 15 year old daughter) she'd already stolen all of the billets needed for the show. And so it doesn't appear as cut and dried as is often presented here in Penny.

Jeff
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mastermindreader
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POINT by point:

You obviously aren't a lawyer and don't know too many of them. I practiced trial law for a decade and count hundreds of attorneys as log time personal friends. That's why I ignore stereotypes.

My actual statement- "Virtually every PEA member holds a similar position to my own."

A gambling demonstration is not perceived as magic tricks and leads naturally into the area of "tells," intuition, etc.

"Artful" and "art" are not synonyms. Many readers DID miss the irony, however:

Quote:
ARTFUL
adjective
adjective: artful

1.
(of a person or action) clever or skillful, typically in a crafty or cunning way.
"her artful wiles"
synonyms: sly, crafty, cunning, wily, scheming, devious, Machiavellian, sneaky, tricky, conniving, designing, calculating; canny, shrewd;
deceitful, duplicitous, disingenuous, underhanded; informal- foxy, shifty;
archaicsubtle
"artful politicians"
antonyms: ingenuous
2.
showing creative skill or taste.
"an artful photograph of a striking woman"
synonyms: skillful, clever, adept, adroit, skilled, expert
"artful precision"


The "mistakes" that I called disastrous to a mentalist referred directly to exposing a gimmick, device, or sleight, NOT simply getting a thought incorrectly, which can indeed add credibility. My exact words were:

Quote:
Sleight of hand in skilled mentalism (as opposed to self-working store-bought mental magic) requires the same proficiency level and nerve required of a professional high-stakes card cheat working solo. For the cheat, accidental exposure can result in serious injury. In pure mentalism it will result in a complete loss of credibility and, if the performer is working "strong," derisive laughter and name-calling as well.

But when a magician drops his thumb-tip or accidentally exposes something, he can usually just blow it off with a funny one-liner. After all, the audience already KNOWS that he's just doing tricks.


I NEVER said the magic sleights were easier, just that the consequences of accidental exposure are far more dire,hence the need for flawless execution. And swiping billets pre-show, when no one is really paying attention to the assistant, isn't exactly sleight of hand. Refer back to the definition of "artful."
IAIN
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Bob - I dunno why you bother...

a wise man once said "i only read minds, I don't improve them.."

i wonder who that wise man was?! Smile
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C'est Moi!

I don't know why I bother either, because I really don't care if someone agrees with me are not. I just try to help newcomers understand the fundamental differences between magic and mentalism.
MagicalEducator
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On Jun 25, 2016, IAIN wrote:
Bob - I dunno why you bother...

a wise man once said "i only read minds, I don't improve them.."

i wonder who that wise man was?! Smile


One would presume that she "bothers" because he cares about his art. One would presume that he bothers because he wants to share his experience. Why does one bother to make such a response? I mean really why bother? While I don't necessarily agree with Bob on some of these points I do feel like I want to bother because unlike some I do have my own opinion and thoughts which grow and evolve over time. The gambling demo wasn't about tells it was all about card manipulation and done to silently to music. it was yet another example if a person doing magic and mentalism together in a show. Perhaps one has to be. PEA member to successfully do this. On another point the billet switch was skilfully accomplished. The original comment was about billet switching and these were single billets that were switched and then immediately given back to the participants to put in a box at the front of the stage. My comment about lawyers was obviously a joke and my apologies if that was missed. The tone of the comments in the forum is often like this when one doesn't share the mentalism isn't magic. Every argument has an equally valid counter argument and it does because magic, mentalism or whatever one chooses to call it is a performance art. There simply is no way to get around this fundamental point. As such the art is open to individual interpretation and practice that none of us will likely agree on.

Jeff

Ps. The quote given suggests a dated audience put down that some would argue isn't that funny but rather audience abuse. Surely magic and mentalism has moved passed this type of crass low grade comedy.
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IAIN
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You would have thought grown men would attempt to live up to that title, rather than try and provoke and troll on a saturday night...but there you go!
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Quote:
On Jun 25, 2016, IAIN wrote:
You would have thought grown men would attempt to live up to that title, rather than try and provoke and troll on a saturday night...but there you go!

You call anyone who disagrees with you a troll ... How cute!
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