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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hiya, Magi:
My local church has surprisingly been surpassed in its disdain for Magic, by a local Christian club which has invited me to present a brief luncheon show in June. I've been informed that I'll not be allowed to even mention the "M" word, and thus all references to my work will be some variant of "The-Art-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named." Nah, it's not a paid gig, just an opportunity to perform -- and maybe ruffle some feathers. And perhaps...just maybe...get somebody to think about their prejudices and biases. Sincerely, Leland Edward Stone |
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Andrew Loyal user 285 Posts |
Mr. Stone,
Perhaps I don't understand the situation in which this group has asked you to perform. If they are against your art, why have they invited you to display it? Just curious. Andrew |
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-03-17 14:16, Andrew wrote: Even more to the point: LeLand, why would you wish to subject yourself to such a trying situation and limiting performance venue. I'd be very concerned with their motives in asking you there; perhaps they intend to surround you and to do an intervention or exorcism on you. (grin) Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hi, Guys:
As to the motives of the host group, well, it is a favour to a friend of my wife. Only upon committing was I informed about the problem with the "M" word. As to why I would subject myself to such an harsh audience: I did make a commitment (albeit without having full disclosure), but beyond that, I enjoy stirring things up. I've posted elsewhere my opinions about the misguided views towards evil held by contemporary Christians, and this is an opportunity to challenge those views head on. Leland (stack that wood and bring the matches!) Stone |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
Hi Leland
Do you have Christian conviction, are you saved? Just curious Mario |
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GlenD Inner circle LosAngeles, Ca 1293 Posts |
It seems like there is no point to it.
I understand that this isn't really anything of an evangelical opportunity and that most of those there are already believers but I am not sure I understand why you are doing it. I do not think you will be doing anyone a favor, especially if you feel it your duty to ruffle these peoples feathers or whatever. But regardless, I wish you well and I also would remind you to pray and try to make it a positive experience. GlenD
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin
"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!) |
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BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
I personally would find it far easier to perform a show without using the word "magic" than it would be to perform a show without using the Word of God!
After I am a Christian Illusionist, not a magician. So that "M" word actually never does come up with me in performing. Although I am not sure that I am one who enjoys ruffling feathers as you indicate that you do, but I have often said, I do not wish to offend --- any more than is necessary! And since the Word of God is offensive to some, it will offend some. Having said that, I am curious about your attitude on this issue. What positive result do you think your "stirring" has on contemporary Christians? How specifically; what approach or effect, has been successful in getting them to rethink their prejudices and biases? And which ones do you get them to rethink? Thanks in advance for more understanding. BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hiya, Magi:
Mario: I am a Christian. BroDavid: The contemporary Christian Church in America has, in my view, largely abdicated its senses and moral relevance. We stage boycotts of theaters showing "Harry Potter," while overlooking a divorce rate in our own pews which outstrips that of the surrounding 'pagans.' We tolerate the lunacy of TBN, neglecting that 80% of the clients at our crisis pregnancy centers are from Christian homes. The misguided zeal of some members has brought the Church derision and disrepute. That is not suffering for the sake of Christ, which is wise and noble; it is suffering for the sake of personal foible, which is folly. When members of the Church declare as 'evil' that which is simply personally distasteful, evil becomes trivialized as a term. In classic form, the modern Church chokes on gnats while ingesting the entire camel. It's my desire to challenge existing notions of "evil" that sincere zeal might be more appropriately directed. The approach that I use is simple: How is (whatever position expressed or held by the subject) supported in Scripture? Those who sit in Moses' seat had best be prepared to justify their occupancy, and -- should they find themselves unable to do so -- may rethink their position. If, of course, the questioning is presented with gentleness and respect. Leland |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Re: It's my desire to challenge existing notions of "evil" that sincere zeal might be more appropriately directed.
What is your notion of relevant evil that you wish to challenge within yourself? How is your zeal directed toward positive outcomes for yourself and your audience? Martin Luther was not a performance artist.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jon Gallagher Veteran user Elmwood, Illinois 395 Posts |
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet..."
Willie "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck..." I dunno who You can call it anything you like. Magic, Illusion, sleight of hand, or even nabiscowafers... but the bottom line is, it's still a form of magic. Black magic? No. But magic nonetheless. I tell my audiences right up front that I'm not a real magician... I'm just playing the part of one and that everything I do can be done by a ten year old with twenty years worth of experience. I can't guarantee that the word "Magic" isn't going to slip out somewhere along the line, but I do tell them if they want to see "real magic" all they have to do is look out the window and see God's creation. All they have to do is look at the children. That's the kind of magic that I can't replicate, and wouldn't even attempt to. |
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Rob Johnston Inner circle Utah 2060 Posts |
Some groups invite those whom they disagree with into their fold so they may flank them from behind. Be careful and if it something where they can belittle you, I would avoid it.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-03-18 19:59, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Astinus: Thanks for the heads-up. I actually know nothing of the group itself, and hope for a more positive outcome than an attempted ambush. Worst case scenario: No performance takes place, and I bid them peace on leaving. Hi, Jon: Thanks for the line about the ten-year-old with 20 years of experience! I have to agree with your perspective on Magic -- that it isn't real, and is but a poor imitation of that True Magic which is found in God Alone. But in that imitation, that image if you will, there lies certain spark that some might call Divine. I have a copy of an undated photo of Howard Thurston performing in an orphanage circa 1920s. One might well imagine that the lives of those orphans was not the brightest, nor their prospects anything more than hopeful. Nevertheless, at the moment that Thurston produced for them a duck their hearts were cheered, and for an instant all their cares forgotten. It is that moment to which I aspire in this Art. Further, if that moment was not -- albeit in a pale and watery way -- a taste of the day to come when every tear will be lovingly wiped away forever, then they can break my wand immediately. Hiya, Magi: I believe I'm come up with the presentation I'll be using during this June engagement. As you know, the host club objects to the use of the term "Magic," yet has invited me to attend and talk about my business (!). Therefore, my spiel is going to run along these lines: "I practice an Art whose origins are uncertain and strenuously debated. Nevertheless, I personally trace the beginnings of my Craft to a land far away and a time long ago. "It was then that an evil king, on hearing of the birth of the True Ruler, became murderously jealous. To protect his illegitimate throne, he ordered the slaughter of all young males in his kingdom. "But other kings had learned of the birth of this Ruler, whose coming they had read in the Heavens. They journied to, where they worshiped the newborn King...and were inspired to deceive His assassin. "The clever foreigners' deception fooled the wicked king, who sought his 'usurper' in another place. The Child King survived (though His death would one day come at the hands of other wicked men). The deceivers who protected this Child have been called by many names: 'Learned Ones,' 'Astrologers,' 'Wise Men.' But in the court of the wicked king they were simply known as 'Magi.' "It is their Art from which mine is descended, although where they used deception to shield the Saviour, in my hands it is used to entertain." Now their argument over the use of the "M" word is no longer mine; it must be directed at Luke. Sincerely, Leland Edward Stone |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]Martin Luther was not a performance artist. [/quote} Really? He performed as a goliard or singer of secular songs until he had a life-altering experience that caused him to become a member of the clergy. After he left the Catholic Church, he composed set the words to many of the more popular Lutheran hymns to the tunes of old German secular songs. He was criticized for this. His reply --"Warum müssen alle gute Waisen dem Teufel angehören?" or words to that effect -- basically "Why should the Devil have all the good tunes?" I have performed in many very strict Christian churches. I've never felt the need to use the word "magic," if the pastor or preacher, himself, objected to it. Instead, I have asked him or her what acceptable term I could use instead. There are many synonyms -- conjuring, illusion, altered reality -- I'm sure your fertile mind will come up with one.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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pastorclyde Special user 576 Posts |
Greetings! Like Jon, I define what I mean when performing 'magic.' Though I like Jon's way of saying it better I simply say to any group that I've not performed for (and often remind those I have performed for) that only God does miracles. What I do is magic and that means that I have your permission to 'trick' you and that is what I intend to do. Anyone with years of practice and an overdrawn credit card could do what I'm doing.
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Shadow Regular user Akron, OH 171 Posts |
I also issue a disclaimer, but I do with a trick.
I open with Cereal Killer and tell a story how things are not what you expect or what I say. That Magic was done on the cross and that I do tricks. I may direct your attention one way and surprise you with something coming from the other. I may tell you something is going to happen and something else might. Then at the end I say that if you open your minds and have fun we may just fool you. I then reveal the ending and take my bow. |
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tboehnlein Inner circle ohio 1787 Posts |
LeLand your opening statement of the Magi is excellent. it shows you are speaking in authority & honesty.
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Restrictive Show Update:
The luncheon date came, I went, I performed. The show was well-received, even though the sound system was inadequate and I caved in on using the term "illusionist" (a prissy euphemism which I despise). Afterwards, during a round of rather satisfying applause, the club president -- the lady who'd made such a row about NOT using the "M" word in front of a bunch of Christians -- stepped forward and said, "let's all say 'thank you' for that delightful display of [you guessed it] MAGIC!!!!" Leland |
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David Todd Inner circle 2328 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-04-21 17:42, Bill Palmer wrote: Really ? That's a new one on me . The Internet Encylopedia of Philosophy has a quick biographical sketch , which includes this background on Luther's upbringing and training before becoming a monk --- http://www.iep.utm.edu/l/luther.htm Quote:
Martin Luther was born to peasant stock on November 10, 1483 in Eisleben in the Holy Roman Empire – in what is today eastern Germany.Soon after Luther’s birth,his family moved from Eisleben to Mansfeld.His father was a relatively successful miner and smelter and Mansfeld was a larger mining town. Martin was the second son born to Hans and Magarete (Lindemann) Luther.Two of his brothers died during outbreaks of the plague.One other brother, James, lived to adulthood. This squares with what I have read about Luther in full- scale biographies , such as the standard one by Yale University Church Historian , Dr. Roland Bainton , "Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther" , which is quite good from what I remember , though it did verge on Protestant hagiography at times . Quote:
After he left the Catholic Church, he composed set the words to many of the more popular Lutheran hymns to the tunes of old German secular songs. There's more to that quote than meets the eye. I have read from a Church music historian , Dr. Leonard Payton (Ph.D. , University of California) that modern historical research has clarified the context of Luther's remark "Why should the Devil have all the good tunes" as being a saucy reference to the Papacy (Luther not being a big fan of the Pope after he was excommunicated from the Church ! ) . Luther had retained many of the Roman Catholic settings for the Mass, to the chagrin of some of the more radical reformers who wished to purge out the influence of anything that smacked of Roman Catholicism. It is true that Luther was an accomplished musician and familiar with German folk tunes as well as "high Church" music. It is very possible that some of the hymns Luther composed may have been based on popular folk melodies. (similar to what one finds in the works of legitimate orchestral composers such as Dvorak , Greig, and Aaron Copeland. ) In his article "Congregational Singing and the Ministry of the Word" (I think originally published by Concordia Theological Seminary Journal, though now widely archived on various internet sites) Dr. Payton has this to say about Luther as a composer of hymns : Quote:
......some will say "But Luther used songs from the bar." |
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astoundingbruce Regular user Burlington, WI (USA) 127 Posts |
The New World Dictionary of the American Language (Second College Edition) defines magic thusly;
Quote: So I am not ashamed to use the word "magic" or to bill myself as a magician.
the art or performing skill of producing baffling effects or illusions by sleight of hand, concealed apparatus, etc. :bigsmile:
“There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle |
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cpatchett Veteran user My current prediction is that I have 337 Posts |
The problem with the word "magic" is that it is such a loaded word in today's society in terms of its meaning. Despite what the dictionary definition may say, there are a large number of people who will truly believe that you have real mystical powers if you call yourself a magician or say that what you're doing is magic. (Just look at some of the reactions from spectators to David Blaine for an example.)
Read Romans 14:14-21 for an excellent example of what the Bible has to say about this. (Which is, after all, what we should go by.) It can be summed up in verse 16: "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil." Craig
Magician: Someone willing to spend $15 to learn how to make $1 disappear.
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