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countrymaven Inner circle 1449 Posts 
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I would like to differ with you. I am a bit wild with coin magic. no, you can never handle a gaff as freely as a regular coin. you have to gain experience and learn how to handle it. deceptively. it starts in the mind.
I hand out half dollars, for instance and hold onto a gaff coin. I have nobody questioning me except for a strange rare person. usually they are just bluffing . you need to be able to come up with an answer like no you can do it with borrowed coins. you can if you do a switcheroo. be creative. make magic. |
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tonsofquestions Inner circle 1895 Posts
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I think it's entirely dependent on the gaffed coin.
Using a shimmed coin? You should be able to do whatever you want with it, and it should be as close to identical as a normal one, so that someone handling it can't tell the difference. Have a folding coin? You probably want to be gentler, so it doesn't come apart. Using something like Mark Mason's Double Deception? It's specifically designed so that you can hand it out for inspection, and no one will notice a thing. Though that's definitely one that won't sound right if you flip it. You're right that I was exaggerating slightly when I said handle it just as freely. You do usually need to track it and know where it is, but I maintain that with the right gaffs, you should be able to do just that. If I want to do a 3-fly with three shimmed coins so that I can then vanish them all with their extra property, I maintain that it should be possible to do anything you do in a three fly with standard coins - click passes and flips included. (And yes, I know it would be easier to pick the right currency and get it for free.) |
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mh1001 Special user 602 Posts
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Malaki, that's an interesting stuff. I remember Roy Kuppers told me as well that it could be because glue is generally applied. So when I asked for shimmed custom coins, he said he will employ another method (don't remember what he said...). But in the end, I've waited 9 months (4 months for shipping...), and the result is bad. He said I would like them, meaning that he succeeded. In fact, he failed miserably. The sound is bad, nothing like a real coin. Not even close. That is, assuming he really made these custom coins, because in my mind, it's not impossible that what he sent me are actually normal shimmed coins, not the custom made ones I requested. But I have no proof anyways.
And yes, tonsofquestions tells the truth, he actually recorded the sound of his gaffed/nongaffed coins and sent that to me. One of these gaffs sound pretty much like a normal coin. |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 23, 2017, tonsofquestions wrote: that's my point. It still isn't the same. First your saying your evidence disagree's with me, then it agree's 
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Jerome BMC New user Switzerland Vaud Denges 12 Posts
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Some specifics glues provide the same sound (of ungaffed coins), for coins assembly. That's pretty interressant for magnetic coins because if you want to brasing it, the magnetic will gone with the high temperature.
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tonsofquestions Inner circle 1895 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 24, 2017, Joshua Barrett wrote: No, I'm not internally inconsistent. Consider: a normal half dollar rings (A) like a bell (call it A#). A gaffed half dollar can sound like a bell (perhaps a B#) or just thud instead (call it C). While the gaffed (B) and non-gaffed coins (A) might not sound *exactly* the same, at least they both sound like real coins - most spectators wouldn't notice the pitch difference, or think to assume all coins of the same denomination sound exactly the same (which they don't). If we're talking two different types of coins (say, an English Penny and a half dollar), which normally have different tones, anyway. Compare that to the coin that thuds - which doesn't sound like a coin at all. It's the difference between two things sounding the same as each other, or sounding like normal items of the category they belong to, but possibly different. Cars have different engine sounds, even if you're not discerning enough to tell the difference. But you do know the difference between a car engine and a pile of mud getting dropped on the floor. I have gaffed coins that sound like a real coin. They're slightly off as compared to a regular, ungaffed coin *of the same type* if you're listening real closely. But by itself, someone untrained would not be able to hear anything unusual. Is that clearer? |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts
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I guess, but your definition of "the same" is much looser than mine. I never said there was not coins that were better than others in terms of ringing true, only that there really is no way to make them sound like real coins. If you fluff the definition of sounding the same to being "some are closer than others" then ok I agree, but it seems pointless. We are still at gaffed coins that sound like gaffed coins.
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tonsofquestions Inner circle 1895 Posts
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But that's my point. I don't think our definitions are that different.
But mh1001 reminds me about the clips I made a while after this thread. So it's simple enough to test your ears. We'll start easy. Which of these coins is gaffed? https://clyp.it/bwzlwobm?token=8ffaf2da0......efde05ff https://clyp.it/cnjmgzma?token=cd466abbc......bd6394ac |
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inigmntoya Inner circle DC area native, now in Atlanta 2389 Posts
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I'd say the 2nd one is gaffed. The 1st one "rings", the 2nd doesn't.
Quote:
On Apr 24, 2017, tonsofquestions wrote: |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts
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2nd. However, The question to me isn't which is gaffed. Which doesn't matter. It's the difference that makes the difference. As to why one copper/silver sounds "better" than another seems rather simple to me, a better made coin is going to sealed together better. This is going to transfer vibration better then a poorly made one. Of course because of the difference in metals ... a silver half vs a half that's copper/silver. The different metals have a different resonant frequency producing a different sound.
What are we trying to get at again? 
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tonsofquestions Inner circle 1895 Posts
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I cheated, sorry(, not sorry?). They were actually both gaffs: CS coins of different makers.
I'm not talking about a slight better here. On a scale of 1 to 100, where real coins are at 100, and a brick is a 0, I'd say most CS gaffs are at 20, and I think this one is easily 85-90. Sure, if you compare it side-by-side with a real coin, you can hear the difference. Looking at the spectrum plot for the audio, you can also see the reverberation/harmonic tones is slightly more extended for a real coin. But I'd put this one high enough to describe it as "sounding like a real coin." You're absolutely right that it has to do with how well sealed the coin is - and in retrospect I should probably have realized that - clad US coins are essentially C/S coins as they have multiple metals - they're just fused together as malaki mentioned. I guess that's the essence of my original question, though: which gaff makers make coins that are fused (rather than glued)? Which ones do it with better precision, so that the coin vibrates like a single piece of metal? Is that phrasing more to your liking? 
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts
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So all this dancing around was to ask who makes the best coin gaffs. LMAO. bro.... I'm done. I'm thinking you pretty much know.
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Jerome BMC New user Switzerland Vaud Denges 12 Posts
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I can say that's possible to make double faced or cs etc. Gaffed coins they sounds like real coins. Just the coin maker have to use the right glue
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 827 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 26, 2017, Joshua Barrett wrote: The best gaff maker may not make the best sounding. |
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tonsofquestions Inner circle 1895 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 26, 2017, Joshua Barrett wrote: Please stop putting words in my mouth. That was not what I said, and was never my question. There's no such thing as "best", and I've told other people as much when they ask. Go check out my original post again (the end included here for convenience): Quote:
On Sep 13, 2016, tonsofquestions wrote: Now, (7.5 months later, I'll add), I finally have a better understanding of what causes some coins to sound (close to) correct, versus those that go thud instead. Awesome: progress. The additional parts of my original question were: Which types of coins can be made to sound normal (it would be amazing in a split coin, for example, but I suspect very difficult) and Which manufacturers (if any) do this reliably? By special order? People can make their own decision about whether this is a feature they care about (you seem not to, which is totally fine) versus other considerations like price, lead time, custom coins, etc. I hope that's clearer. |
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mh1001 Special user 602 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 26, 2017, Jerome BMC wrote: Hi Jerome, since you're here, I was wondering if you can make that happen ? I know that you stopped (temporarily?) making coins, but if you can make a gaffed one that sounds almost like a real coin, I would be very, very interested. |
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Jerome BMC New user Switzerland Vaud Denges 12 Posts
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Hi mh1001, that's possible for only the double faced coins or copper silver coins (or inserts coins for sun moon, csb etc.). Of course a gimmicked coin made with 2 separate parts (or more), who're no glued together can't have the same sound like an ungaffed (flipper, shelled coins,split etc).
https://youtu.be/lK1K3EzJaZE |
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tonsofquestions Inner circle 1895 Posts
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Ooh, an expert! I eluded to some of this in my very first post.
I get why a flipper or folder wouldn't work. You didn't mention magnetic/shimmed coins in your list, but I'm assuming that counts as "double faced". But why would, say, a split coin not work? Clearly the whole thing together can't sound right, but would it be possible for an individual "split" to? I'd think using the right glue might have the same effect as on a C/S coin, but it's possible I'm missing something. |
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Jerome BMC New user Switzerland Vaud Denges 12 Posts
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Yes you're right, the half part of a split (with one magnet) will sound the same (a bit higher frequency because the less weight).
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Danwseers New user 78 Posts
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I was reminded of this post.
While not related to a C/S or "solid" gaff coin, I have noticed something worthwhile with a shelled coin. While tossing coins one at a time from hand to hand, I noticed that when the drop of a shelled coin occurs laterally the sound is way better than a vertical drop. I was counting through the coins as a display before CoinOne, the shelled coin was the third from the top so there would be an impact/sound before and after it was displayed/counted. By tossing the coins more horizontally, I have found the sounds created by all coins are very similar. I would go as far as to say it would disarm anyone familiar with the dud sound of a shelled coin. Just though someone else might benefit from this thought. Cheers |
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Posted: Apr 24, 2017 01:41 am 
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