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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » TV series "The Exorcist" premieres tonight (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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jstreiff
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Of course the discussion I had has little do with the TV show. I perhaps foolishly thought it might add some interest to the discussion. I don't quite see how published research is 'anecdotal' however. It does appear that my rather innocent comment seems to have triggered responses which is itself interesting and perhaps somewhat revealing. I leave it to others to interpret this for themselves, I was simply trying to add some depth to the conversation.
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R.S.
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On Sep 28, 2016, jstreiff wrote:
Of course the discussion I had has little do with the TV show. I perhaps foolishly thought it might add some interest to the discussion. I don't quite see how published research is 'anecdotal' however. It does appear that my rather innocent comment seems to have triggered responses which is itself interesting and perhaps somewhat revealing. I leave it to others to interpret this for themselves, I was simply trying to add some depth to the conversation.


Your discussion with an exorcist who claims to have been at the Maryland exorcism is anecdotal. The “Maryland exorcism” itself is anecdotal. Your account of having witnessed macro-PK phenomena is anecdotal. Moreover, what are the chances that someone who goes by a title of “religious exorcist” would be inclined to believe that something real and supernatural (or at least unexplainable) is going on when he’s called on to attend a purported case of demonic possession??

And published research by individuals or organizations with a vested interest in the supernatural is hardly impressive.

And yes, you did add depth to the conversation. After all, the OP asks, “how many believe in demon possession”?

Thanks.

Ron
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ed rhodes
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On Sep 25, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
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...the events of the actual film DID happen in this universe...


That's difficult story premise to pull off. Ttlonists posting on wikipedia?


No. The priest was looking through a web search and found an article about the deaths in the first film.
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jstreiff
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It is important to separate opinion from established facts.

The exorcist I mentioned was involved in a program of research within the Jesuit religion quite similar to that in the Catholic religion. Those who have studied these programs know that the practitioners are far from wide-eyed 'believers'; in fact they are mostly skeptical of the phenomena. These studies are conducted with a similar caution to those that can lead to the canonization of saints and the declaration of miracles. If one is unaware of exactly how this is done it is unwise to offer comment as anything other than opinion. The exorcist in question was actually a very skeptical person by his own admission.

The research was conducted by experienced scientists to determine if the phenomena reported a anecdotally was credible and obtainable under controlled conditions. There was extreme skepticism as to whether these tests would be successful. The research was published in peer-reviewed technical journals.

As for my personal opinion to set the record straight, I do not find it necessary to invoke demons to explain ostensible cases of possession. In my mind, such cases can be explained in a scientific context based on a sufficient understanding of indicators in modern theoretical physics and psychology. At this stage, it does not appear necessary to invoke supernatural explanations for any anomalous phenomena. I have come to realize that it is the misunderstanding of this fact that leads to divisive commentary on anomalous matters, both pro and con.
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Grimoire (n.) Look up grimoire at Dictionary.com

magician's manual for invoking demons, 1849, from French grimoire, altered from grammaire "incantation; grammar" (see grammar). Also compare gramary, glamour.
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On Sep 29, 2016, jstreiff wrote:
It is important to separate opinion from established facts.

The exorcist I mentioned was involved in a program of research within the Jesuit religion quite similar to that in the Catholic religion. Those who have studied these programs know that the practitioners are far from wide-eyed 'believers'; in fact they are mostly skeptical of the phenomena.


When one calls himself a “religious exorcist”, he gives up any pretense of being skeptical. You wouldn’t really consider someone who calls himself a “Leprechaun hunter” to be skeptical of Leprechauns, would you?


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These studies are conducted with a similar caution to those that can lead to the canonization of saints and the declaration of miracles.


Define “miracle”. And who makes the declaration – mainstream science, or the church?


Quote:
If one is unaware of exactly how this is done it is unwise to offer comment as anything other than opinion. The exorcist in question was actually a very skeptical person by his own admission.


Replace “exorcist” in your sentence with it’s definition (“one who casts out demons or other supernatural entities using the Roman Ritual as prescribed by the Catholic Church”) and the bias becomes quite evident.


Quote:
The research was conducted by experienced scientists to determine if the phenomena reported a anecdotally was credible and obtainable under controlled conditions. There was extreme skepticism as to whether these tests would be successful. The research was published in peer-reviewed technical journals.


And what was the conclusion of the research?


Quote:
As for my personal opinion to set the record straight, I do not find it necessary to invoke demons to explain ostensible cases of possession. In my mind, such cases can be explained in a scientific context based on a sufficient understanding of indicators in modern theoretical physics and psychology. At this stage, it does not appear necessary to invoke supernatural explanations for any anomalous phenomena. I have come to realize that it is the misunderstanding of this fact that leads to divisive commentary on anomalous matters, both pro and con.



I agree with you that it isn’t necessary to invoke supernatural explanations for any anomalous phenomena. So then should we give any credence whatsoever to “religious exorcists”, who start with a premise that demons and spirits exist?


Ron
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What would they exersise if demons didn't exist to them?
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jstreiff
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Before expressing opinions on exorcism, one should at least take the time to study it. The entire field is actually quite complex and deeper than most people realize. One of the things you would learn which might be surprising is that many exorcists - and here I refer to those who work in a religious context, not the self-appointed exorcists for hire - are indeed quite skeptical as a group.

The research demonstrated conclusively that macro PK is a real effect easily duplicated under controlled conditions precluding fraud in lab conditions. The phenomena is quite real and seems to be more common than people realize. One reason it goes unreported has to do with the extreme skepticism and often negative reactions accounts often provoke.
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On Sep 30, 2016, jstreiff wrote:

The research demonstrated conclusively that macro PK is a real effect easily duplicated under controlled conditions . . . .


I, for one, would be interested in finding out more about this. Maybe a separate thread?
George Ledo
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On Sep 29, 2016, jstreiff wrote:
The exorcist I mentioned was involved in a program of research within the Jesuit religion quite similar to that in the Catholic religion.

Sorry, but I have to clarify this.

The Jesuits (the Society of Jesus) are a religious order within the Catholic Church, like the Franciscans or Dominicans. They are not a separate religion. I attended a Jesuit high school, and I can assure you they are very much Catholics. In fact, the current Pope is a Jesuit. Smile
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I was surprised he was acting as an authority yet didn't know this.
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It wasn't a case of not knowing something. It was a case of being entirely wrong.

I always find that that undercuts other assertions being made. As the lawyers say, "It goes to credibility."
R.S.
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On Sep 30, 2016, jstreiff wrote:
Before expressing opinions on exorcism, one should at least take the time to study it. The entire field is actually quite complex and deeper than most people realize. One of the things you would learn which might be surprising is that many exorcists - and here I refer to those who work in a religious context, not the self-appointed exorcists for hire - are indeed quite skeptical as a group.


Why should anyone take the time to study the practice of “casting out demons” when the very premise (that demons exist) has not been proven? Do you think it’s necessary to take time to study Leprechaun hunting techniques before offering an opinion on Leprechauns?
And again, how can a group that actually calls themselves “exorcists” be skeptical of a phenomenon that is assumed by default by virtue of the very title they bestow upon themselves?


Quote:
The research demonstrated conclusively that macro PK is a real effect easily duplicated under controlled conditions precluding fraud in lab conditions. The phenomena is quite real and seems to be more common than people realize. One reason it goes unreported has to do with the extreme skepticism and often negative reactions accounts often provoke.


Moving large objects by mental processes alone is a REAL effect? It’s EASILY duplicated?? Under CONTROLLED conditions? It’s more common than people realize? Who won the Nobel Prize for this? And do you really think that something so fantastic and so easily reproducible would go unreported simply because of some skepticism? To the contrary, I think this would be front page news everywhere. The primary researcher(s) would be lauded and celebrated the world over. Labs and scientific organizations everywhere would replay the effects for everyone to see. Methinks the fact that this is not the case indicates that claims of macro PK are greatly exaggerated. To say the least.


Ron
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Dannydoyle
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On Sep 30, 2016, 0pus wrote:
It wasn't a case of not knowing something. It was a case of being entirely wrong.

I always find that that undercuts other assertions being made. As the lawyers say, "It goes to credibility."


It certainly strains credibility.
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Dannydoyle
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On Sep 30, 2016, R.S. wrote:
[
Moving large objects by mental processes alone is a REAL effect? It’s EASILY duplicated?? Under CONTROLLED conditions? It’s more common than people realize? Who won the Nobel Prize for this? And do you really think that something so fantastic and so easily reproducible would go unreported simply because of some skepticism? To the contrary, I think this would be front page news everywhere. The primary researcher(s) would be lauded and celebrated the world over. Labs and scientific organizations everywhere would replay the effects for everyone to see. Methinks the fact that this is not the case indicates that claims of macro PK are greatly exaggerated. To say the least.


Ron


Wouldn't someone has a check waiting for them at the JREF don't they if they can do that?
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R.S.
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On Oct 1, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 30, 2016, R.S. wrote:
[
Moving large objects by mental processes alone is a REAL effect? It’s EASILY duplicated?? Under CONTROLLED conditions? It’s more common than people realize? Who won the Nobel Prize for this? And do you really think that something so fantastic and so easily reproducible would go unreported simply because of some skepticism? To the contrary, I think this would be front page news everywhere. The primary researcher(s) would be lauded and celebrated the world over. Labs and scientific organizations everywhere would replay the effects for everyone to see. Methinks the fact that this is not the case indicates that claims of macro PK are greatly exaggerated. To say the least.


Ron


Wouldn't someone has a check waiting for them at the JREF don't they if they can do that?


Yes. And then they could sign the check using PK rather than by hand. Smile


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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As a matter of fact that can be the entire test.
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jstreiff
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I don't know why I forgot that the Jesuits are an order of the Catholic church, thanks for the clarification. I was more focused on the conversation.

The research was published in various issues of the Journal of Parapsychology and the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research in the 1970s by Dr. William G. Roll and Dr. James Carpenter. Dr. John Kruth reported a study of a PK agent in 2014 in North Carolina which is being published in the Journal of the Society for Scientific Exploration.

I can't tell you why this research has not made more news other than to speculate that most editors may tend not to believe it since it contradicts everyday experience. I suspect the reason it is not well reported elsewhere is that those who do so are inevitably met with the kind of derision exhibited here.

To those who are confident in their stance regarding the impossibility of the phenomena, please remember that absence of evidence in your personal world is not evidence of absence in the real world.
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It is actually the absence of evidence in the real world.
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R.S.
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On Oct 1, 2016, jstreiff wrote:
I don't know why I forgot that the Jesuits are an order of the Catholic church, thanks for the clarification. I was more focused on the conversation.

The research was published in various issues of the Journal of Parapsychology and the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research in the 1970s by Dr. William G. Roll and Dr. James Carpenter. Dr. John Kruth reported a study of a PK agent in 2014 in North Carolina which is being published in the Journal of the Society for Scientific Exploration.

I can't tell you why this research has not made more news other than to speculate that most editors may tend not to believe it since it contradicts everyday experience. I suspect the reason it is not well reported elsewhere is that those who do so are inevitably met with the kind of derision exhibited here.

To those who are confident in their stance regarding the impossibility of the phenomena, please remember that absence of evidence in your personal world is not evidence of absence in the real world.


Astounding, groundbreaking, and paradigm altering phenomena that is:

a) REAL
b) COMMON
c) EASILY DUPLICATED UNDER CONTROLLED CONDITIONS

simply does not stay under the radar for very long. And you know what eliminates derision? Demonstrating the phenomena to those who deride! Or winning the JREF million dollar challenge. This should be the easiest thing in the world to accomplish given a, b, and c above. And it would quiet the naysayers once and for all.

I, for one, never claimed impossibility of PK (although it does fly in the face of everything we know about cause and effect). But until there is compelling and credible evidence, there is no reason to believe it. Moreover, you yourself said that “it does not appear necessary to invoke supernatural explanations for any anomalous phenomena.” Yet you seem to be a strong advocate of the supernatural. How do you reconcile the apparent opposing views? And getting back to the original subject of the thread, do you believe that “demons” exist?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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