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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » Can Gimmicks be to good ? (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

warren
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I'm looking to purchase either a s***l or a gravity fli**er, whilst I know that these coins can be used for many different effects I would be using which ever coin I decide on mainly for coins across.

My question as such is do people think the magic that can be done with a fli**er is to strong ie if I have 3 or 4 coins on my open left hand and with just a little up and down movement of the open hand one coin visibly vanishes before arriving in the spectator's hand, or maybe putting 3 coins in the spectators hands and getting them to shake the coins only to have a coin vanish whilst its in their hands... does such as strong effect just lead the spectator to guess correctly that they are special coins ?

Whilst the magic is also strong with a s***l coin because the hand closes before vanishing the coin the spectator could be left thinking that it is down to the magicians skill.
inigmntoya
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You're touching on the "too perfect" theory of magic.

In my view, a coins across can be done with or without gaffs. If your spectator is thinking it's skill or trick coins, you haven't created "magic".
They should just be thinking what they just saw was *impossible*.


Quote:
On Nov 23, 2016, warren wrote:
I'm looking to purchase either a s***l or a gravity fli**er, whilst I know that these coins can be used for many different effects I would be using which ever coin I decide on mainly for coins across.

My question as such is do people think the magic that can be done with a fli**er is to strong ie if I have 3 or 4 coins on my open left hand and with just a little up and down movement of the open hand one coin visibly vanishes before arriving in the spectator's hand, or maybe putting 3 coins in the spectators hands and getting them to shake the coins only to have a coin vanish whilst its in their hands... does such as strong effect just lead the spectator to guess correctly that they are special coins ?

Whilst the magic is also strong with a s***l coin because the hand closes before vanishing the coin the spectator could be left thinking that it is down to the magicians skill.
warren
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That doesn't answer the question though does it, we all know that magic is about presentation and personality rather than just skill but the question remains when something is that perfect do the coins get questioned especially by perhaps friends or relatives ?

So if you have used a coin such as these in those conditions what has the reactions been like and have they thought it's the coins?
warren
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Having re-read my reply I may have come across a bit harsh so please accept my apologies if that was the case, what I should have said was thanks for your input as it is appreciated and whilst I agree it should be about presentation and personality rather than just skill the question still stands ie have you used one of these gaffs in less than perfect conditions maybe for friends as an example and if so did they question the coins at all.
David Neighbors
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Well You also Have To know Not just How To do It But WHEN!!! I call stuff Like that walk on water stuff! You can't do it the 1 st. time you meet them! They Already Have to know your GOOD !!! And you can as they Say " walk on Water!!! " As the old masters used to say " It's not what you do but HOW You do it!!! "
David Neighbors



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inigmntoya
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Presentation and personality vs skill = whether your audience is entertained.
That's separate from them suspecting gimmicked coins, cards, etc.

With friends and relatives you're going to have an audience that's less inhibited w/respect to crossing boundaries in terms of being grabby, questioning your props, etc., but I think my point still holds. If the effect is done right they can suspect or guess all they want, but won't have a clue as to the actual method, unless you end "dirty" with gimmicked item(s) in grabbing range.
The key is not proving to them there are no gimmicks, extra coins, or anything else, but to allow them to convince themselves of that "fact" so they don't question it, because they "know" it to be true.

For reference you can find the Too Perfect Theory and a whole bunch of other good essays in this *FREE* collection from Vanishing Inc:
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic-......in-mind/

Quote:
On Nov 23, 2016, warren wrote:
That doesn't answer the question though does it, we all know that magic is about presentation and personality rather than just skill but the question remains when something is that perfect do the coins get questioned especially by perhaps friends or relatives ?

So if you have used a coin such as these in those conditions what has the reactions been like and have they thought it's the coins?
warren
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Thanks for the replies and I'll check out the link you kindly provided.
One of the reasons I asked is a none magician friend of mine saw an Eric Jones performance on TV where he does a coins across to his and the spectators hands, now even though Eric performed it perfectly with great presentation my friend immediately said he's using special coins so it does make you wonder if using gimmicks more subtley is a better approach.
inigmntoya
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Again, someone saying "he's using special coins" doesn't mean they know that's the case. They may just be grasping at straws. Did your friend explain how the "special coins" he suspected worked/enabled the effect? If not,it's an easy excuse to avoid saying he was fooled. Of course one should probably avoid asking such questions to a challenging spectator - it reduces things to being a puzzle.


Quote:
On Nov 24, 2016, warren wrote:
Thanks for the replies and I'll check out the link you kindly provided.
One of the reasons I asked is a none magician friend of mine saw an Eric Jones performance on TV where he does a coins across to his and the spectators hands, now even though Eric performed it perfectly with great presentation my friend immediately said he's using special coins so it does make you wonder if using gimmicks more subtley is a better approach.
warren
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Quote:
On Nov 24, 2016, inigmntoya wrote:
Again, someone saying "he's using special coins" doesn't mean they know that's the case. They may just be grasping at straws. Did your friend explain how the "special coins" he suspected worked/enabled the effect? If not,it's an easy excuse to avoid saying he was fooled. Of course one should probably avoid asking such questions to a challenging spectator - it reduces things to being a puzzle.


Quote:
On Nov 24, 2016, warren wrote:
Thanks for the replies and I'll check out the link you kindly provided.
One of the reasons I asked is a none magician friend of mine saw an Eric Jones performance on TV where he does a coins across to his and the spectators hands, now even though Eric performed it perfectly with great presentation my friend immediately said he's using special coins so it does make you wonder if using gimmicks more subtley is a better approach.


I didn't want to add any fuel to the fire by asking him any questions. Just to clear up some points just in case it comes across that I'm against using gaffs as I tend not to use gaffs very often, I think both the coins I mentioned are superb tools and I have used a s***l in the past myself and I'm actually considering getting a much higher quality one, however I'm also very tempted to get a good quality fl****r too.

Personally I think these tools should be used in a more subtle way to create miracles, this may sound strange but whenever I perform card magic that relies on sleight of hand I always aim to make it look like I do nothing yet when I perform so called self working card magic I always try to make it look like I do something via a false shuffle etc. I have performed my magic this way for more than 20 years and it has served me quite well so I will continue along those same lines with my coin magic.

Having said that it is of cause very interesting to hear other peoples views on what we think we can and can not get away with especially as we all come from different parts of the world which can alter the way we perform things as audiences can differ greatly.

What I would love to read is peoples actual experiences using these tools in such an open manner in the real world as audiences can be a lot more difficult since youtube etc and before people jump in with it's down to presentation your missing some important points, if people like magic especially younger people they will have looked at magic exposure videos on youtube and have seen how things are done long before having seen you perform so it's not always down to presentation but that's a different topic,
J-Mac
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Just one piece of advice warren: Sounded like you said you'd be putting some coins including a flipper in a spectator's hands and having them shake them so the flipper will close. Don’t do that!! Having that gaf operate in a spec's hands is almost bound to expose it.

Jim
warren
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Jim I definitely won't be doing that as that goes against everything I've just spoken about...it was Eric Jones that uses that technique so as he's well known I used his handling as an example of blatant handling.
inigmntoya
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I believe Craig Petty also has some material that puts a flipper in the spectator's hands, including letting them handle a closed one.
Probably ok if you choose your spectator wisely based on their behavior with previous effects. Certainly not for a skeptic or "grabber". Smile
warren
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Inigmntoya thanks for the input I do have that dvd along with the destroyers dvd set, so far I like the idea of placing the open flipper along with a regular coin onto a spectators open hand and asking the spectator which coin should I use next ploy from Craig's dvd, however it would need to be a good flipper which is something I can't decide on...manufacturer wise that is 😊
funsway
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I have championed having the magic occur in the spectator's hands for 60+ years, but avoid placing a mechanically gimmicked object in their hands.
I will place a C/S on their palm for flip upon closing, or a TUC for extraction from their hand before the reveal, BUT ...

the key is this these actions are to prepare for the "moment of magic" and not part of the "moment" itself.
The ultimate is a "vanish to empty" in their hand that some notable performers claim is impossible but refuse to try.

The secret is that you do not plan on performing such an effect as part of your show, but are practiced and ready if the special conditions occur to make it possible.

So, gaff or not is not the issue - it is recognizing when the observers expect magic to happen and making them believe some condition exist other than what will be revealed.
A gaffed coin can be part of this, but must not be the ket to effect. Audience engagement is - and always will be.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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warren
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Funsway with that said what are your thoughts on the following Eric Jones performance is it to much ( link provided ) ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fab7LDXwH-c
Bella Dans
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I love the advice from J-Mac about involving audience whenever its possible with these great gimmicks.

I also think a great way is to present to the audience in a way that follow a certain path of logic ,
either is created by sleight or gimmick , the magic moment should surprises them
and at the end, leave the un-gimmick prop on the table, let them examine it if they want to, magic usually happens in mind when they reflect.
warren
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Bella Dans J-Mac actually advised not to put the gimmick in the spectators hands I think you may have misinterpreted what he ment.
funsway
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Quote:
On Nov 27, 2016, warren wrote:
Funsway with that said what are your thoughts on the following Eric Jones performance is it to much ( link provided ) ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fab7LDXwH-c


The expectations of this audience is not that of a typical "close up" audience, and the effect is designed to "fool" Penn & Teller.

Thus, it is great for the purpose intended.

For me it is far to entailed and convoluted to create the sense of "must be magic" for most observers/audiences, i.e.
the impact and results can be achieved with less skill and artifice, gimmicked or not.

Is the gimmick employed "too good?" Too expensive and limited might be more to the point.

I do not like the references to "make sure nothing goes up my sleeve," and "hold by edges so that I can't use sleight of hand," statements, but that is a matter of style.

I have chatted with Eric about some of these issues and have to bow to his judgement of what is "most entertaining" for a given setting. More magical is another matter, but subjective.

Had I his hands and skill I would aspire to something more profound and apparently simple for most audiences. Again, any gimmick would be secondary to the greater choice.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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