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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Tabled 2nd drawing demo (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Nov 27, 2017, MarcoLostSomething wrote:

Will there be some sort of recognition for it? Like a honorable mention from Cagliostro? Or a "Cagliostro Cup"...


A real champion only needs the challenge and the recognition of accomplishment, and I know you guys are all real champions.

However, I still have a complimentary certificate for a Dan Madison facial tattoo (just one left). So, if the champion who duplicates the tabled second deal feat herein wants to boost his persona further with a Dan Madison facial tattoo, just let me know.
Cagliostro
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Admittedly there are members on this BB that are more knowledgeable about modern day technology than I, so perhaps they can be helpful here.

Since many of these Asian videos are falsified in some form or another, I have a natural distrust for all of them. That being said. Here is my question:

Is it possible to falsify this video so that a frame by frame analysis, as done by SimonCard and Claudio, would make the move appear to be legitimate when it is not? If so, would it require much effort to do such falsification?

Secondly, if this is a legitimate move, it should not take a great deal of time to master. It is not a six-month attempt to master type move. In fact, any skillful person should have a good idea of its feasibility after an hour or two of playing with it. If determined to be feasible, it would simply be a matter of perfecting it over time - but not too long a period of time.

My move junkie days are long gone, I stopped doing demos after the age of about 18 or so, and I have no use for this particular move at all. However, it is so intriguing that I sat down and played with it for about 15 minutes or so, using both a poker sized deck of Bee playing cards and a Poker sized deck of Kem plastics.

By bending the top two cards upward by the sides, griping the cards towards to lower left corner of the deck, with the forefinger and middle finger on the middle of the top cards, one can of course feel the edge of the second card from the top. Slightly pushing down with the two fingers of the right hand to move the top card slightly away from the second card enables one to pull the second card out - of sorts. However, to cause the top card to remain stationary is quite a task in and of itself but certainly "appears" possible.

As I said, I have no reason to spend time to see if I can master this or if it is "real," but I am sure there are other on this BB that love to do moves and might enjoy the challenge here.

Hopefully, we can get an answer to the technical question posed initially on this post and perhaps some feedback on the feasibility of the move by those who have tried to do it.

If no one who tries this can do this or duplicate the move, especially with bridge-sized plastic cards, then it is not "real" regardless of what the frame by frame "analysis" shows.

So...what do you guys say on this?

Now is your chance to "shine." Smile
AMcD
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Cag,

EVERYTHING is possible in terms of video editing, even absolutely unbelievable stuff...

That's why I add stopwatches in my videos for instances (hard to edit because I use animated graphics). I don't think that move impossible to do. Just that we are in 2017 and those guys post videos with a quality inferior to the one in use during RAMESESS II times. Poor resolution, low frame per second rate, etc. Why doesn't he show the move in 720p or 1080p?
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Nov 28, 2017, AMcD wrote:

Cag,

EVERYTHING is possible in terms of video editing, even absolutely unbelievable stuff...

...Poor resolution, low frame per second rate, etc. Why doesn't he show the move in 720p or 1080p?


So, what you are saying, or at least implying, is that the frame by frame analysis by SimonCard and Claudio, even though they both are sincere in their belief that the move is legitimate, may have come to an incorrect conclusion? I'm not saying they may be incorrect...but apparently it is possible>

The reason I am inquiring further is because I am not a tech guy - this is all a mystery to me. I am lost as far as video manipulation is concerned. However, if you say the frame by frame analysis could be false, and therefore the subsequent belief that the move is real could be wrong, then the only way to ascertain if the move is real is if it can be duplicated by someone else with a reasonable amount of practice.

So, it appears to me the move is to some degree, still in question...?
AMcD
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I haven't analyzed the video. Again, that slight doesn't seem impossible to me. The switch seems very fast though and yes, the top card doesn't move that much.

Technically, you can do anything, removing frames (pictures) for instance.

But I'm not gonna lose my time with videos of that kind. It shouldn't be that hard foro that guy to film it in 720p or 1080p. Then, I may be interested.
popcalinda
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Great move
Cagliostro
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Seems like AMcD has demonstrated, on another thread (AMcD's Video Legacy), that almost anything can be done to edit these videos.

So once again, after all the oohs and aahs of watching this video are expressed, it no one on this board can approximate doing this move deceptively after playing with it for a while, then as far as I am concerned, it is just another Asian BS video. I have played around a little with this move and can do it myself at this point, but nowhere near as good as on the video and certainly not up to any reasonable standards of deceptiveness or consistency.

Even if it can be done deceptively under fire, it seems a pretty useless move to me. I can't see of any game where this move would be needed or even used.

Of course, perhaps there are some Asian games that I am unaware of where it could be employed.

Does anyone know of where this move could effectively be used to replace simply dealing a second from the hand? If not, then it is really just total BS.
TH10111
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In games like Gin, if you were to take a card from the deck, it would be very weird to pick up the deck and deal yourself a card from the hand.
This move would likely be best suited to a game in which there are certain cards to avoid. These cards could be marked and then the second used to take an alternative.
SimonCard
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For the games I played, people like to draw cards from the tabled deck in turn instead of dealing it by one person. I played it without money involved, but people do play them with money. I'm not sure if this has actually been used in games or just a demo.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Nov 28, 2017, TH10111 wrote:

In games like Gin, if you were to take a card from the deck, it would be very weird to pick up the deck and deal yourself a card from the hand.
This move would likely be best suited to a game in which there are certain cards to avoid. These cards could be marked and then the second used to take an alternative.


Okay, that is a possibility and I respect your taking a shot at this. However, I would think that answer would be more in the realm of a demonstrator's explanation while showing the move rather than practical use under fire. I say this for several reasons:

First of all, it would be a very weak use of a second deal and is too obvious, dangerous and suspicious a move to use repeatedly under fire. I think eventually it would wake the dead.

Secondly, a second deal in Gin would not be used that way. It would be used on the dealing of the initial cards to yourself and the opponent. It would not only be more deceptive doing it that way but also much more powerful.

Third, in many Gin games, at least with halfway alert opponents, the "drawing stock" on the table is spread out and not kept in a squared-up block. The cards to be taken from the stock are slid off the spread-out portion and not lifted up. This is to prevent someone from peeking at the second card from the top of the stock.

The fourth reason is there are far more deceptive, powerful and clever ways to beat a gin game without the danger of using marked cards in conjunction with what is essentially a "Mickey Mouse" move. Also, it would be a pretty weak and dangerous way to use a marked deck. If one did used marked cards in a serious game, it would be better if he were a good Gin player who could basically hold his own or win on the square. The marked deck would be to give him an extra edge without using a move.

Fifth, even if the tabled stock is not spread out but left in a squared-up block on the table, I have never seen a Gin game where the cards were picked from the sides. They are invariably picked from the ends for ease in seeing what the card is and for ease in putting the picked card in the fanned out cards in one's hand.

The reason I say the above things is I actually do play Gin for very decent stakes and have done so for years so I know what works and what does not. There also is a vast difference between getting the money under fire and speculating on how demo moves are or could be used.

Finally, I don't know if you have tried to learn this move yourself but I have toyed with it and achieved a somewhat half-way mastery or less that desirable achievement of same. The move itself, in my opinion, in real world practical application is really a BS move, especially against reasonably alert or observant players for real money. It is also suspicious looking - one can't do it cleanly every time. I base that on a lot of experience in games and having mastered many "good" moves in my lifetime.

Yes, I know it looks good on video but until someone can actually do this move deceptively himself, IMO it is all speculation.

It is easy to make a video and either doctor it up or simply keep shooting the move until it falls perfectly for a demo. Doing it that way is not even close to using it repeatedly under fire.

For demos one can certainly give speculative answers as to why a move is good or speculate how it would be used and I thank you and respect your attempt at this.

However, if anyone wants to try this move out in a real world game, a worthwhile game for money that is, I think embarrassment would be the least of his worries.
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"I base that on a lot of experience in games and having mastered many "good" moves in my lifetime."

That is the problem. People with less knowledge will not evaluate this move as "BS" and would use it. A lot of people do "BS" moves, some fail and some do not.

Imagine that someone, who has 100 times more knowledge than you, would say that all YOUR methods are "BS" (in terms of efficiency for example). What would you think?
AMcD
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I'm talking for myself here, but I wanna see that move in HD and good frame rate.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Nov 29, 2017, Peterson wrote:

That is the problem. People with less knowledge will not evaluate this move as "BS" and would use it. A lot of people do "BS" moves, some fail and some do not...


No, that is not the problem The problem is your response to my post is completely off-point, and off-point for the following reasons:

First, I never said that "lesser" moves were BS or that they did not work. Depending upon the situation and other factors they certainly do and can work. If you read some of my previous posts on this BB, it is my contention that it is not what you do but how you do it. (In other words, how you dress the move or the play up, i.e., grift sense.)

What I specifically said is this particular move, based upon my experimentation, does not work on any meaningful level and for that reason is therefore BS.

That is quite different from your contention.

In my opinion, if you had made even the slightest effort to master or duplicate this sleight of hand maneuver, I believe you would have come to the same conclusion.

However, if you can prove this is not a BS move and in fact you can duplicate it on any meaningful level, then I will apologize and admit I was wrong. Other than that, you have no valid argument.

In my opinion you cannot make any meaningful conclusion about this move by watching the video - you must attempt to master it yourself. Not to perfection, but to a workable level to determine its viability. Anything less than that is speculation and conjecture.

So...prove me wrong.
TH10111
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Cag,

I completely agree that this move is highly unlikely to go unnoticed, especially if used repeatedly. For this reason it would have to be a one-time move, or at least employed infrequently, if at all. So, for gin, it probably wouldn't be strong enough to justify using it on the draw.

And obviously it would require the deck to be left squared-up rather than spread, which I'd hesitate to say didn't happen in any money games. Also, if a squared-up deck was used, I imagine that its orientation towards you would dictate from which ends you took the card.

But my aim was to simply suggest a context in which the move could be applied. I agree that other methods and techniques are far superior to this in terms of getting the money.
However, as with any move, if the conditions are right there is an argument for it; given a squared-up deck in the centre of the table, from which you need to take the second card, ideally with easily distracted, deaf opponents.

As an example, you've got a marked deck in to a hold'em game and before the turn or river you notice that the card you need to make your hand is on top. Given a large enough pot and some suitable misdirection, this move could be used to burn the second card down and deal the top card on to the table.
I acknowledge that this is a very specific situation and is unlikely to occur in any serious money games, so overall it doesn't really justify learning the move and I wouldn't waste time with it.

Additionally, I think being a good player that could hold their own before trying to cheat, is good advice for any game.
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"However, if you can prove this is not a BS move and in fact you can duplicate it on any meaningful level, then I will apologize and admit I was wrong. Other than that, you have no valid argument. "

Of course not, because this move IS "BS". He needs to square up the pack every time to deal one second deal and sometimes he fails.

"In my opinion you cannot make any meaningful conclusion about this move by watching the video - you must attempt to master it yourself. Not to perfection, but to a workable level to determine its viability. Anything less than that is speculation and conjecture. "

Of course you can. You do it all the time. There are physical differences between good and bad moves not only in terms of the actual move but also in trade-offs between effort and efficiency. The evaluation happens when you see the line. My point was, that the majority, me included, do NOT see this line.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Nov 30, 2017, Peterson wrote:

Of course not, because this move IS "BS". He needs to square up the pack every time to deal one second deal and sometimes he fails.


So we are in agreement here.

Quote:
...There are physical differences between good and bad moves not only in terms of the actual move but also in trade-offs between effort and efficiency. The evaluation happens when you see the line. My point was, that the majority, me included, do NOT see this line.


There is no line between good and bad moves. A efficacy of a move is not black or white, unless the move is completely worthless and absolute BS. The move itself is not the main criteria except for demonstrators who use the move only for demonstration purposes, in isolation and devoid of real world context.

A "bad" move in the hands of a clever hustler with grift sense can be very effective. A "good" move in the hands of someone lacking grift sense, timing, cleverness of application and employed in the wrong context can be a disaster.

The move itself is only a small part of the overall equation, unless of course you are a demonstrator. Under fire, it is the move in combination with the other factors of its application that makes it effective or ineffective to varying degrees.

There is no black or white line - it all depends.
AMcD
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@Cag

What do you mean I can't do the move? I'm offended!!

http://www.arnoldmcdonald.org/code/publi......=6900001
The Curator
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Loooooooooooooooooooool. You have a point. Smile
SimonCard
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Hey Arnold. that looks really good. be honest, did you down-sample the frames?
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I take back my last comment. Arnold. Your video is edited. you are taking the top card.
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