I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2EXh5hz......embedded
and I'm trying to see how to get the instructions. I have a ring and rope routine that I do almost every show, and that would be a kicker ending.

I contacted the creator, Yosuke Kobayashi, through his Japan-based magic store web site to see if he has the instructions for sale, and he tells me he released them to the Feb 2008 issue of M-U-M magazine for the Asian Astonishments column. I'm not a member of SAM, so I don't get the magazine.

None of my searches, phone calls, or other contacts have been fruitful to this point, so I thought I'd come here.

Would anyone know where there is a similar move taught that is available for purchase? Or perhaps have a copy of that magazine they would be willing to part with?

Ed

This appears to be a relatively standard method, but his "get ready"/move is very smooth and deceptive.

I'll look, the basic move may be in Daryl's Expert Rope DVDs


John

This routine is so smooth, I am astonished.
Thanks for point us to the right direction John Long.

Daryl's "direct throw on" is the basic method I was thinking of. However, YK's get-ready/move is accomplished somewhat differently.

To a lay audience, I think Daryl's method looks the same as YK's, but YK's has some extra "provers" that catches magicians off guard (and may be more of a magician fooler than anything else). Roland Henning, of the Café, had a move on a rope routine that he's shown us, that is intermediate between the Daryl's move and YK's. But YK's is cleaner looking and I think may be less angle sensitive (not sure until I try it)

The advantage of the "direct throw on" is a cleaner display (from the front) right before the ring is tossed on. Still kudoo's for YK, clever modification.

John

While this ring-onto-rope move does what it says, (it gets the ring onto the rope) it just doesn't look like anything at all magical has happened to me.

Similar sorts of moves to this do produce a strong magical effect. If the ring is thrown at, or towards, the rope and the ring appears to penetrate and link onto the rope at the point of contact with the rope, that can create a strong and surprising magical moment. With this scenario something impossible is seen to have taken place.

But this move doesn't create that look. Instead it looks like the ring drops or slides along the length of the rope onto which is has already been threaded. And that is exactly what is happening!!

How this threading happens might be not specifically known. It happens smoothly and fast and a spectator won't know it's happened until after it has happened. But at best that is a bit of a puzzle or an demonstration of proficiency. It isn't a moment of magic.

If I see someone expertly and quickly tie a specific knot in a piece of rope (say a bowline) I might not know specifically how they've achieved the specific knot they've tied but I won't see it as magical as there has been no moment of impossibility. It will simply be proficient and expertly done. That's what I think this ring on rope move comes across as. Not at all magical but simply as an efficient threading of the ring onto the rope.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I think it is what it looks like and I think this is how an audience will see it too. I mention this here not to be a killjoy and pour cold water on someone's 'move' but simply in case the novelty and smoothness of the execution of this move has appealed to a magician's eyed view of it overshadowing how it would actually be perceived by an audience.

This move may well have a place within a routine but I think it is hardly something likely to provide a kicker ending to a ring on rope routine.

My routine is David Eldridge's Ring and Rope. It was one of the first "big things" I bought. In my routine, it's the story of my little dog Ringo who has to go on his leash outside to eat, but somehow always gets off the leash. As the ring is always getting tied onto the rope and coming free, to have the ring "jump onto" the rope at the end is an appropriate twist. ("So that's the story of Ringo, who would never stay on his leash - unless it was time to eat.")

That may not have the "kick" that others want. But for me, it's a very nice way to close up the whole routine. Especially if there's a way for a volunteer (already on stage with me for the last phase) to hold one end of the rope without seeing what's happening.

Ed

Ed Millis wrote "to have the ring "jump onto" the rope at the end is an appropriate twist."

I get what you are saying Ed.... I just don't see that this move looks like the ring "jumps onto' the rope. It looks like it's been threaded onto it. I just wonder if that's a good ending to any ring and rope routine?

Well, the reason this particular video grabbed me was - to *me* - it did NOT look like the ring was threaded on, but like it was tossed down and penetrated the rope. The handling of everything (even when watched in slo mo!!) gives a great illusion. I know the ring needs to slide along the rope on the way down. But this is very clean - again, to me.

Ed

Ed, having watched your video reference, I believe the "fooling" part is because he does a very fast finger movement with the left fingers at the critical point. Slow motion will not even catch it. Remember, I have mentioned this several times, many of the performers from Asia do this material for years, therefore, it becomes natural with them and they don't have to think at all about the moves. It is engrained in their natural memory and movements. I know what he is doing, just not what fingers are doing what behind his hand.

Bill you make the same point that I expressed. It looks like he's doing something so smoothly and proficiently that it appears as if he has expertly threaded the ring onto the rope in some novel way. But it didn't (and doesn't) look to me like the ring magically penetrates on to the rope.

It's impressive, puzzling, smooth and maybe even cool and it will leave an audience not knowing how he (mechanically) did it. But I don't believe it creates a moment of magic where something impossible happened. It creates a moment where something ordinary happened in an extraordinary way.

Obviously Ed feels differently to me and sees it differently and that's fine. I hope the general public sees it the same way as Ed does does but my expectation is that they won't. In fact I think what Bill says is (albeit for different reasons) what the public will think. "I know what he is doing, just not what [his] fingers are doing"

There is an ending move very similar to this one on the DVD I have. But I could never get it to work for me, partly because you have to do the move at the beginning and hide it until the drop. So what "sold" me on this move was the clean passing of the ring from hand to hand, showing it's obviously off the rope. If you couple that with the fact that the audience (unlike us) does not know what's going to happen, I thought it to be a better move than what I had available.

I think with a volunteer already on stage with me for the previous move, the dirty work could be easily covered by turning and asking him to hold the other end.

Anywho, I do like the move.
Ed

I have the same reaction expressed by others -- what we see on the video is smooth and novel (?) but not magical. I think what's missing here is "presentation". Right now the feel of the video is "hey, check this out while my friend shoots me on my cell phone during lunch break." But I think it could be made "magic" with a fully developed presentation. Also, I think a move like this is better with a heavier ring which drops fast and lands with a snap. You don't see it ride the rope.

I do something like this as taught by Aldo Columbini, but I think this version is cleaner. Anyhow, I tried it several times last night but couldn't quite get my fingers to cooperate in a smooth pass (a problem with a heavy ring). I do think it's worth the work, however.

BeThePlunk; Personally I don't see the presentation being an issue here. He is after all just demonstrating the move and he does it brilliantly. However I think your expression, "rides the rope" is a novel and accurate description of what one sees. The ring slides down the rope rather than falls through the air and penetrates onto it.

Hi, Sealegs - I think we agree that the move is terrific. I was responding to the posters who think what we see on the video is flat. Yes, it is, because, as you say, he's just demonstrating a move. But when put into a routine, I think it can be very effective -- that's what I'm hoping to achieve.

Sealegs:
That is in part why I posted that it may be more of a magician fooler.
So if that is your concern, check into the Direct Throw On move (in Daryl's video, and I'm sure others) - it has a nice static display of the ring free from the rope, and it is "tossed" onto the rope. I think it addresses your concern.

John

Hi John, Thanks for pointing me to this. However I actually don't have a concern for myself about this as I don't perform any ring on rope routine. I was commenting generally about the move and specifically to Ed as to whether or not it was a good choice to end a routine. I was just trying to be helpful by giving an honest assessment and perspective that might otherwise not have been considered.

Like most, I have done several variants of ring on rope routines over the years...especially when I did close up magic for a living. In their entirety I have performed; Mark Leverage's routine, David Williamson's, as well as combinations of bits and pieces from, Lorraine, Aldo Colombini and Daryl. That includes the tossing of the ring onto the rope as performed by Daryl and Williamson and many others. I certainly think these moves create a magical moment. Even in Mark Leverage's routine there is use an old move which has the ring sliding/falling down the rope but this still creates a moment of magic as the set up clearly instills an expectation for the ring to fall free from the rope.

I am posting more on this than I intended and feel that it might seem like I am flogging a dead horse! I'm not trying to convince Ed or anyone else that this move isn't any good and shouldn't be used. That's for any individual to decide. I'm sure the move would fit into some routines. I just wanted to set out what (I see) are it's potential weaknesses.

Cheers

Neal:
Thanks for the input. It is indeed valuable. I know I can get trapped by how something hits me at first, and fail to see what I might have to work through to make it magic.

John:
Thanks for the pointer to Daryl's Expert Rope DVD. I'll have to add that to my Christmas list! :8>)

Ed

Ed:

I believe the Direct Throw On is on Vol 3 of Daryls 3 DVD set. I don't think the move is Daryl's creation, so it is probably in other places as well.
Yet there is a LOT of stuff on those DVDs and you never know when an unexpected effect will catch your eye (that happen to me with the Gysel (Spirit) Tie (Vol 2); it gave me a closing effect to a show I did years ago.


John

I've been doing a routine based on the Fiber Optics Extended dvd. I like the ring and rope moves there. Does anyone know of any other ring and rope moves that can be added to that routine. Remember that most of the moves in other routines use a rope and a ring. Fiber Optics is a little different using a rope and a ring and something else.

Thanks, Ted

I use to have the write up of this move....in English translated from Japanese.

There were 2 other variations in the write up, which were quite good, if not better IMHO.

I use to use the moves at the beginning or end of my routines....as most of my routine utilized an extra short 8" piece of rope. These move(s) utilize only one rope and leaves you clean.

The vid doesn't really do justice to the move. It can be very very convincing.

I had a quick look and can't find it now (may have tossed as I did a major clean-up a while back) but if I find it I'll PM you.