Dear Friends,

I have a couple of questions about a topic that I know little about although it is directly related to our magic proffesion. the topic is riddles...

The reason I need to know about riddles is the following... I am consulting a collective about their debut album, which I am also designing the CD covers for... and I had the idea of using small riddles on each of the covers... or small games.. ... this idea is interesting because of the particular style of the collective.. but lets not go down that road...

the initial idea came from CARTER BEATS THE DEVIL... and the small graphic on the bottle sticker...
for those that don't know about it... there is an optical riddle where you cannot make sense of what you are seeing unless you look at it at some particular way... (the idea is obviously not original as it is most definately inspired by the painting THE AMBASSADORS... london national gallery)

one of my proposals is definetely going to be the above graphic... unless you know of another place that this graphic was printed on, which would bound me legally or ethically from using it.. although I think that graphic 'techniques' and 'effects' cannot cause you legal problems... (the problem would be ethical... if it was used on another... cover for example... or legal if it resembled a trademark... please let me know if you know about that)

anyway... lets forget about this particular optical riddle.... do you know of book(s) that explain analyse on a theoretical and/or practical way riddles... what kind of riddles are there? ok there are optical riddles... there are verbal riddles... there are hidden images... but is there a theory around them... is there a person that was known for his deeply elaborate riddles... (and I don't mean "your uncle Charlie"..) naturally I am more interested in optically oriented riddles... starting from "what is it that you see" to "the hidden image" to "the hidden meaning"

throughout my education I have dealt numerous times with optical illusions and so on... but that is not quite the same.. some of them could actually act like riddles but no more than few of them...

I would truly appreciate any help !!

thanks in advance,
yours,
M I C

The "riddle" you're referring to above is called a "perspectogram". I used them often back in art school, hiding words in my design work (usually a dig at one of my art professors).

I would also look into codes. Perfect Circle used an elaborate code on their first CD. You have to find the key to it, in order to read the lyrics. Try the Encyclopedia of Codes and Codexes.

Pat Metheny's Imaginary Day release had the entire credit booklet in code while the CD and tray liner made up the key dial.

Re: unless you know of another place that this graphic was printed on, which would bound me legally or ethically from using it.. although I think that graphic 'techniques' and 'effects' cannot cause you legal problems... (the problem would be ethical... if it was used on another... cover for example... or legal if it resembled a trademark... please let me know if you know about that)

anyway... lets forget about this particular optical riddle.... do you know of book(s) that explain analyse on a theoretical and/or practical way riddles... what kind of riddles are there? ok there are optical riddles... there are verbal riddles... there are hidden images... but is there a theory around them... is there a person that was known for his deeply elaborate riddles... (and I don't mean "your uncle Charlie"..) naturally I am more interested in optically oriented riddles... starting from "what is it that you see" to "the hidden image" to "the hidden meaning"

The notion of putting hidden messages into art works is hardly new, and there are examples of anamorphism and such techniques in the books for you to find.

The design/messages Robert Houdin put on his business cards was such an old chestnut that there was not doubt as to the words being found at the time.

Embedding text and messages into another text or message (visual or not) is a part of cryptography. wish you well in your studies and the best in your project.

Hi everybody! and thanks! Allow me to restate my thoughts!

I got a PM earlier which stated that me using the graphic from the book.. would be possibly illegal and most definetilly immoral..! I am a bit confused so I ll take it step by step...

Firedice27 told me that this kind of graphic (a perspestogram) is "very" common and he has been using it back in art school!! I also told you earlier of the very very famous painting "the ambassadors" by Hans Holbein who from what I get used for the first time the idea...!! my intentions are NOT to steal!! but if such a graph as firedice27 suggests exists as a notion or idea many years now and doesn't belong to anyone then what is the problem? you cant blame someone for wanting to draw stickmen on an album cover... (that wouldnt be illegal)... although it would be immoral if someone had used it in the same way on a related publication!! (do I make any sense now?) I am not trying to defend myself merely to create a clear picture of what I think is a misunderstanding...

so my 2 questions were as follows: where can I learn more about this particular and other related effects?
and
what do YOU know about it?

from the replies so far I get that this is something which is very commonly used...!! and that the copyright doesn't really belong to anyone other than the public... I say this because I don't want to steal anything from anyone! if for example you knew that Houdin used it... G. D. Gold used it and numerous people had used it as well over the year then this would mean that there is no legal or moral problem for me to use it on a format that is remotely different to any previous.

What do you think? those that have seen this think before... if any .... firedice27 I would appreciate very much your help..!!

is there something particularily special about the graphic in Carter beats the Devil which would make it significantly different to any other perspectogram?
I don't see the name of an artist anywhere in the particular book... was it designed by the author?

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The notion of putting hidden messages into art works is hardly new, and there are examples of anamorphism and such techniques in the books for you to find
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Jonathan Townsend thanks for your reply as well, although I think you didn't really get my intentions... this is part of my basic research!!!!

what are THE BOOKS that you are reffering to? could you please suggest some of them? also where can I learn about Houdin's cards?

I don't want to blow my own trumpet here... that's not my intention! but I 'm telling the following to avoid people replying with weird suggestions about morality in art and so on... I am tutoring in one of the best Fine Art Schools in the world, I am interested on your opinions and knowledge on the specific matter... not on generalisations about morality in art... what you can copy and what not I have a good idea of... that's why I am asking!

I would geniounly appreciate anyone's contribution!!

thanks again!
M I C

by the way 'the ambassadors' was painted in 1533... that is..a long long time ago...

Each perspectogram is different, of course. I think people may have been concerned that you wanted to use the EXACT perpectogram from Carter Beats The Devil. That would be a no-no. But the concept of the perspectogram is owned by no one. Knock yourself out. As long as it's an original designed by you, have a ball.

"is there something particularily special about the graphic in Carter beats the Devil which would make it significantly different to any other perspectogram?
I don't see the name of an artist anywhere in the particular book... was it designed by the author?"

The above question makes me wonder whether you know what a perspectogram is at all. I mean no disrepect, but you do realize that there are specific words, chosen by the author, that are hidden in there, right?
I want to help you, so, if you really aren't sure what a perspectogram is, feel free to PM me, and I'll explain. But please don't go stealing from Mr. Gold! Make one of your own! It'll be waaaayyyyyy cooler!

"I am tutoring in one of the best Fine Art Schools in the world,"

Then, perhaps, you may want to ask one of your art teachers, being that this is an art issue. Or even visit the art section of the library.

"I don't want to blow my own trumpet here... that's not my intention! but I 'm telling the following to avoid people replying with weird suggestions about morality in art and so on... I am tutoring in one of the best Fine Art Schools in the world, I am interested on your opinions and knowledge on the specific matter... not on generalisations about morality in art... what you can copy and what not I have a good idea of... that's why I am asking!"

This is what comes with discussions. And badgering those who are trying to help you won't get you very far. I wish you luck, and a little tact... and some research may help too.

Hi firedice27!! thank you very much!! I think things have cleared up now!

first of all I don't mean to be untactful...(is this a word?) nor to be badgering those who are trying to help me... my comments were directed elsewhere... I will edit my post so I don't offend anyone although I truly didn't mean it!

as for the perspectogram naturally I understand what it is and that is why the thread took this direction... because I couldn't understand the arguments made against the idea of using the principle... and ofcourse I wouldn't use the words "a sans francisco sorcerer" or "charles carter magician" LOL!!! I hope its clear now... I got a bit offended by the attidute of some messages earlier that's why my reply seemed untactful...

Thirdly I ve done some research and didn't find anything, that's why I was asking here...!

By the way "I am tutoring..." not being tutored LOL!!! I have never seen more misunderstandings in a thread before.

Thanks again! I hope things have cleared up now!!

M I C

I am still laughing to the thought of cutting and pasting the exact same graphic ROFL its a shame I cannot share with you who are involved in the collective you would really laugh your head off !!!

Ok... I think we understand now! LOL!

No, the perspectogram concept is free reign. Go nuts! If you want advice on an extemely easy way to make one, PM me.

Agreed! feel free to design your own perspectograms and anamorphic images. There was a very cute card revelation on a matchbook using such a drawing. Have fun! And yes, I am suggesting you look into old books and art history texts. People have been having fun with images for a long time.