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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Has anyone discussed these issues with someone who actually cheats at cards?
How do they assess the technical discussions of mechanics? How to they feel about the discussions of people skills and misdirection that MUST work properly for subterfuge to serve the shark?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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dchung Special user Montreal 616 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-04-02 18:33, scafidi7 wrote: Jason just calls 'em as he sees 'em. Notice the attack was on the statement, not the man. Quote:
In a way I understand what Glenn means. He *may* have been speaking (writing) metaphorically. The only people likely to get through the text of Expert once are the ones who will go back and re-read it a thousand times. Anyone else will barely get through the first 3 pages. It's a book that requires commitment and study. That's why we're all here. Rereading it a thousand times will not make you an expert either. The term expert is certainly not to be used lightly. What do you mean *may* have been writing metaphorically? If you don't say what you mean and instead say foolish things, then expect strong responses. So I guess what I'm saying is I must respectfully disagree with you scafidi7. Cheers, Derrick |
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T. Joseph O'Malley Inner circle Canada 1937 Posts |
Respectfully accepted.
tjo'
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Richard Lucas Special user TX fornow- MemberMagicCastle'65-'88 737 Posts |
I bot EATCT in about 1965 at Owen Magic Supreme when they were located in Alhambra about 2 blocks from my home. Inside it states Copyright 1901 but the fly page states Wehman Bros., Hackensack, NJ
How can I twll what edition this is?
"The only difference between a Card Cheat and a Magician is that the Magician shows off.".......... Jay Ose 1965
Dicklucas |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-04-02 02:55, Ember wrote: Could you please post a little bout James Andrews as a magician and a performer. Or tell me where this info is about Walter? Thank you, Glenn Bishop
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Richard Lucas Special user TX fornow- MemberMagicCastle'65-'88 737 Posts |
Glen,
Try http://www.mysticlightpress.com/index.php?page_id=131. Loads of info on him, author of The Shadow, one of my all time favorite radio shows as child.
"The only difference between a Card Cheat and a Magician is that the Magician shows off.".......... Jay Ose 1965
Dicklucas |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Thank you real minatures...
Glenn Bishop
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Eddini_81976 Inner circle 2183 Posts |
Not to sound stupid, as I know very little on this subject, but is it possible, That DAI VERNON, or perhaps CHARLIE MILLER, may have been the author, or were they old enough? The book was written 1909 right? Wouldn't have Vernon or Miller been in their early 20's at the time? I like Hugard & Brau's (Expert At The Card Table) myself, as it is a thicker book with more material. I think I have only thumbed through E.C.T. only once or twice, and I don't think the book was as thick as Hugard's & Brau's was. I also think I read somewhere that most of the techniques in "Expert At The Card Table" were Vernon's Miller's and Rosini's I believe. Just food for thought I guess. Do you think Vernon would be as modest as to not take credit for E.C.T, or Miller perhaps? Like I said I know very litle about S.E. Andrews or whatever his name was. Oh yes, nice to see you on the board Andrew Wimhurst. I LOVE your video. It fooled me badly especially your triump routine, because you actually spread the cards a little to show the face-up, face-down condition. You seconds, bottoms, centers and riffle-stacking is superb too. I also was floored by your spectators cuts the aces routine. It's a little risky though it seems. Good job, Ed, (Eddini).
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts |
It's a little off-topic, but... thanks Ed!
Okay, nothing to see here folks, move on, move on...
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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Tommy Brown Regular user 110 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-04-06 02:25, Eddini_81976 wrote: Erdnase was published in 1902. Vernon was 8 years old at this time. It is said that by 12 years old, he had the entire thing memorized. Charlie was a few years younger than Dai, how much I am not sure. I am enjoying this discussion of one of my favorite books. |
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joblogg New user Sydney Australia 57 Posts |
If nothing else its a great read
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
It strikes me that you have missed the point.
Yes he played cards, yes he performed magic. But what you seem to have overlooked is what drives a person like this. In fact, it seems he had quite a disease, one that is also common today. That disease being Gambling. It would seem that he loved a game of chance, then set about learning how to increase he's chance by technique. Think of reasons that you would write a book about card technique. Yes the money, but you will find that is only a small part of what drives you. and its not exactly a big market is it. I would be interested in how this book was marketed in its time, who it was aimed at, what bookstores sold it? This would give a good indication of the intent of the publication. Would ladies of the time had access to it to whack the local bridge club. Would young turks of the time be fleecing their friends with card skills learnt from the book. Would it be for Magicians who get asked "you wanna join the game", and being expected to win by using the powers demonstrated earlier. "Hey Bud, I thought you could just pull an ace out of thin air. You aint won a game yet! haha!" Or was this an early attempt to educate Casino employees. Aimed at people who would be working in the business dealng card games and making sure the players are not cheating, while making the house odds better by a little card skill. Whatever the truth, this mans disease gave him a knowledge and skill still sought after today. Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Eddini_81976 Inner circle 2183 Posts |
Your welcome Andrew..lol. I see for some reason I thought that Vernon was born in like the late 1880's...DUH..., and that E.C.T. (which I don't have BTW) was written in like 1909. Maybe it's Expert Card Technique, by Hugard and Brau I'm thinking about. Sorry to be off topic if I was. Thanks for setting me on the right tracks as far as dates Tommy Brown, Ed, (Eddini).
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Good points Partizan...
I think and this is only an educated guess that he was a magician that followed the card sharks like Vernon used to. The time was the 1900's so if your wanted to make a living at performing magic the best place was in the V-theaters or the Music Halls with a stage magic show. Or you were renting the halls and doing a primitive 4-wall event like Kellar was doing. This was no place to make money for a close up magician that did card effects and card sharp expo. In Scarne's book the odds against me he had the same problem so he came up with a card act for a while. Then he became a club date entertainer using the cups and balls with baby chicks and the blindfolded eyeless vision routine. In the same idea as F. Carlyle and John Booth. Andrews would have had to have a day job to get food if he did not cheat with cards in some way. Like 3 card monte or at the tables. We assume that games were easy to find in almost every city. So how does a close up magician earn food money in the 1900's when he does not have a stage offering??? I would think that he would do lectures to the cops of the day and the saloon's on how to spot cheating. And he would sell the book at these lectures. Anyway that is my no-cents-worth??? And my guess? Glenn Bishop Quote:
On 2004-03-31 19:13, pchosse wrote: As far as a name... Many people used a pen name when publishing books. Mark Twain, Kenith Robson, Maxwell Grant etc... Also many performers used a stage name when they performerd... I am sure you can think of a few besides Dante... I have the book the man who was Erdnase and it is an interesting story. And the person that did the drawings for the book Mr Smith didn't finger him... And he was the only one alive at the time that MET Erdnase/Andrews... And the 12 card fancy stock is a demonstration for the book. But who was buying the book and where? Was it sold in Salloons? Was it sold to the newly formed Police Departments? Did he do lectures for clubs? Was he giving Lectures? If Erdnase needed the money why couldn't he go out and get a stake using three card monte? Three card monte was played in the salloons of the day along with Faro and Erdnase doesn't hardly mention the game of faro. I don't have the answers I only have questions...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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marko Inner circle 2109 Posts |
This was the first book that opened my mind to seriously studying the art of card magic. It's probably my favorite book on magic. And I prefer NOT knowing who wrote it. The mystery is so much more interesting than any probable solution.
Thought: Why does man kill? He kills for food. And not only food: frequently there must be a beverage.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I have been looking around the web out of interest in this subject. I came across this comment from an unknown author. I have had no time to look them up yet but it sounds interesting.
“Also, there are 5 mistakes in this Dover Edition. These are common knowledge among the greatest card men in the world, and I share them here with you now. These correspond to the Dover edition (Green cover). (Corrections in CAPS) 1. Page 22 (To Retain Complete Stock, 6th line) ...Now suddenly draw out the middle packet with the right THIRD finger and thumb, and release .... 2. Page 28 (Third paragraph in middle of page) The THIRD finger and thumb do the work. 3. Page 29 (A little under middle of the page) After the hold is established, the main task is in acquiring facility to push out the bottom card with the THIRD fingertip. 4. Page 82 (Middle of page) The RIGHT third and little finger take no part in the action and are held idly out of the way. 5. Page 128 (Fourth line from top) This leaves >>C<<'s cards in position. There you have it. Good luck!”
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I think that there are more editions of the expert at the card table than any other card book. I found what Paul C said about the first Edition that he owned and the fact that it was a self published effort very interesting.
Does anyone know of any other professional card shark that made a living cheating at cards that has published a book about his methods? Not a book that is written about someone like the Phantom of the card table. But a book that a professional card shark wrote himself?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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magiciangirl902 New user Charlottesville, VA 74 Posts |
The truth is, some of these questions the world will never know. BUT good luck trying to figure them out!
Most magicians do magic tricks, I do magic
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
—George Devol, Forty Years a Gambler on the Mississippi
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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slakk New user 100 Posts |
Does anyone know Marlo's opinion on Erdnase and "Expert?"
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