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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » S.W. Erdnase vs Daniel Madison (65 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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bluesmagic
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Just a publicity stunt. It's ridicolous !
TStone
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On Mar 8, 2017, RNK wrote:
While I do whole heartedly agree with Tom and have no idea about the current story of what's going on, I do know that Ellusionist has blatantly false advertised before and purposely deceived purchasers and then defended themselves with arrogant responses. That is enough for me to stay away.

Staying away can be considered a reasonable response.

Doing what "bluesmagic" just did is not, what he just displayed is more what one would expect of a sociopath.

The first step when anyone reports a threat, or calls for help, is to take it seriously. Always.
If it later turns out to be false, then you make sure they face the consequenses. Afterwards. When you know for certain. Not before, based on assumptions.
robd
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On Mar 8, 2017, TStone wrote:
I'm not sure I am reading this right.... but it seems like some people in this thread are defending and condoning actual death threats as a suitable response to an artist's spoof character.

The conspiracy theorists here who claim to know for certain that this is just another marketing ploy. Just give it up.
Your unfounded opinions and guesswork just muddles the issue. You have no idea what the facts are, and you have no cause or reason to provide justifications for the offender.

It is like people have forgotten how to be human beings.


I'm not condoning actual death threats. I'm just saying that I don't think there are any actual death threats. I don't see how questioning something that somebody writes online is muddying an issue, it's questioning it.

If I'm wrong, and he really has got death threats, then that's clearly an awful thing to happen. But if I'm right, and he hasn't, then they're instead using death threats as a way of gaining PR. So should that claim not be held up to some scrutiny? Or we should we just believe what Elusionist say on the internet? That's not inhumane. It's thinking.

It's like people have forgotten how to think.
robd
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Quote:
On Mar 8, 2017, TStone wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2017, RNK wrote:
While I do whole heartedly agree with Tom and have no idea about the current story of what's going on, I do know that Ellusionist has blatantly false advertised before and purposely deceived purchasers and then defended themselves with arrogant responses. That is enough for me to stay away.

Staying away can be considered a reasonable response.

Doing what "bluesmagic" just did is not, what he just displayed is more what one would expect of a sociopath.

The first step when anyone reports a threat, or calls for help, is to take it seriously. Always.
If it later turns out to be false, then you make sure they face the consequenses. Afterwards. When you know for certain. Not before, based on assumptions.


If nobody questions whether it's true, how will it ever turn out to be false?
RNK
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Ellusionists past track record with false advertising and "holier than thou" responses have brought this type of criticism on themselves. Thou, Tom is right, if in fact threats were made then no matter how Ellusionists chooses to behave and conduct their business should not supersede the seriousness of death threats, if in fact they were threatened.
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On Mar 8, 2017, Iain1986 wrote:
That email and open message from Ellusionist really just says it all.

Using the concept of death threats as an excuse to further peddle and advertise a product.

They could have just said, "Death threats have been going on, please let us know if you have more information". Integrity. To the point. No ********, no marketing, no business.

But no.

> 100% of the negativity came from non-buyers; people who didn't own the project.

What a lovely, completely un-verifiable statement.

> If there are any who are unaware of what we’re talking about, this is the project.

I thought this was an email to highlight the issue of death threats? No? Sure, lets link to the product to be sure people go buy it. Gotta get the benefit of a death threat.

> Despite all the controversy, the project shot to the top of our best-sellers list for this year and has received rave reviews (It's only been released for 6 days or so)

Ok..keep peddling.

This whole email/post highlights the real nature of Ellusionist. Preach about the seriousness of death threats, but make sure to advertise and peddle your products while you do it! Preach to the community about integrity, while advertising your wares during a call for information to pass onto the police.

Absolutely appalling.


I totally agree, well said. I will support that concept by choosing to spend my money at magic companies with more integrity, Ellusionist is off my list.
Never criticize someone else until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Then, when you do criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes.
TStone
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On Mar 8, 2017, robd wrote:
If nobody questions whether it's true, how will it ever turn out to be false?

Privately questioning the validity is one thing. Stating categorically, in public, that it is false is something else.

This is of a completely different nature than marketing. Like... A story in The Onion and a story in Breitbart might both be made up, but there is still a world of difference between them.
Tim Cavendish
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On Mar 7, 2017, Tim Cavendish wrote:
And yet Madison is feeding it himself on his own facebook page, by posting "YCKMMF" atop Ellusionist's open letter, just an hour ago.

YCKMMF definition:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=YCKMMF

Madison's facebook post:
https://www.facebook.com/DANIELmadison.c......tion=ufi

...which, together, suggests that it's all more marketing.


Tom, Daniel Madison himself is treating the matter like public theater rather than as any sort of credible threat.

He's still performing his character, egging on the "threat."

See the links in the quoted post.
Yuan Moons
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[quote]On Mar 8, 2017, TStone wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2017, robd wrote:
IA story in The Onion and a story in Breitbart might both be made up, but there is still a world of difference between them.

Not much...
Karl M
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Did elusionists make up the death threat quotes them selves to make the story on the front page news,just my idea
TStone
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On Mar 8, 2017, Tim Cavendish wrote:
Tom, Daniel Madison himself is treating the matter like public theater rather than as any sort of credible threat. He's still in character.

Yes, I know. "Public theater" and "credible threat" are not mutually exclusive concepts. I have acted less than wise in stress situations, and I don't think that is unique for me.
The product is withdrawn from sale.

Regardless, should that really change anything? Should not physical threats always be discouraged when we hear about them, regardless of what our assumptions of them are?
Iain1986
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Tom, I take death threats very seriously. I give Daniel the benefit of the doubt that they have happened, and that no matter how much you can detach yourself from it, its an horrific thing to happen to you.

However, I completely disagree with Ellusionist using it to advertise the product more in the email/posts they have since sent out, and people should be completely free to call them out on this (frankly appalling) approach without being accused of trivialising death threats or the victims of them.
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I don't know whats legit or not, but its very strange for E to post screengrabs of the alleged death threats. That serves no purpose and if anything adds to the theatrical spectacle.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that its legit, but if its not, this will do irreversible damage to their brand. I would think they had the foresight to see that, so I'll assume its real.
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rjs
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In a fit of self-publicity Daniel may have hired a contract killer, but has changed his mind.
The fine print insists that the killing must go ahead, even if the other party no longer wants to be dispatched.
Daniel is now on a downhill journey, but at least he might meet up with Lord Lucan or Jimmy Hoffa in purgatory.
TStone
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On Mar 8, 2017, TuneHV wrote:
I don't know whats legit or not, but its very strange for E to post screengrabs of the alleged death threats. That serves no purpose and if anything adds to the theatrical spectacle.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that its legit, but if its not, this will do irreversible damage to their brand. I would think they had the foresight to see that, so I'll assume its real.

And yet, you are chosing to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the situation with unfounded guesses. Why? What possible reason can you have? I can't fathom it.
Are you sure you would know exactly how to announce that an associate of yours have been threatened? Is it assumed that a magic company is getting so many threats that they have become experts in handling them?

Have everyone forgotten Strange Tasting Fishsticks?
He posted a suicide note here, and was met with mean, sarcastic and crude responses similar to many of the posts in this thread, like it was commonplace for people to post false suicide notes here - despite that it had never happened before or after. Now, a company have withdrawn a product and have explained that an associate of them have been threatened with personal harm, something that have never happened before... and people act as if false death threats are posted every day, with exactly the same kind of sarcastic and crude comments as before. It is like people have forgotten how to be human beings.
Tim Cavendish
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On Mar 8, 2017, TStone wrote:
Regardless, should that really change anything? Should not physical threats always be discouraged when we hear about them, regardless of what our assumptions of them are?

No one here has condoned threats. Threats are wrong. Many have clearly voiced that.

But there are lots of reasons to doubt whether there have actually been any threats.

Yes, Ellusionist has temporarily suspended sales. But the ad video which provoked the supposed "threats" remains in place. It's the most prominent thing on their website. Why would that not be suspended instead? Likewise, the provocative "Apology" video is still in place on Daniel's Youtube account, and he posts an escalatory "YCKMMF" challenge on his facebook account.

According to the narrative where the threats are real, they were incited by the ad campaign. Therefore the ad campaign would be the thing to shut down or alter. But it continues, right on their website, and the now danger-tinged product that people hear about but can't buy is dangled dangled within view but out of reach, which is one way to create desire...

...which was not quite the case upon launch of the campaign. Yes, it succeeded in reaching a tremendous lot of people's awareness, but so did New Coke. And like New Coke, the public response was crushingly negative.

What to do to change the narrative? Point at a boogeyman? (In the US, we now see this pattern modeled almost daily.)

We have to weigh the claims against the actions and the context.

The context here shows that Madison traffics in rough-toned theater (his character is known for a backstory of being beat up by gamblers, yes?), and neither Ellusionist's nor Madison's actions are at all consistent with having received any sort of credible threats.

Their actions are far more consistent with continued marketing.

When people say one thing and do a contradictory thing, what does one believe?

Actions speak louder than words.
TStone
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On Mar 8, 2017, Tim Cavendish wrote:
But there are lots of reasons to doubt whether there have actually been any threats.

No, there are no reasons to doubt the legitimacy of the situation.
There have been no precedences of fake threats. You can't assume that the boy who cries wolf is kidding on the first cry of wolf.
If anyone have paranoid suspicions or conspiracy theories that it's all a hoax, it is prudent to keep that private until more is known.
Tim Cavendish
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Tom, we have no obligation to treat them more seriously than Ellusionist and Daniel Madison are treating them.

Their actions do not treat the supposed threats as serious.
TStone
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On Mar 8, 2017, Tim Cavendish wrote:
Tom, we have no obligation to treat them more seriously than Ellusionist and Daniel Madison are treating them.

Their actions do not treat the supposed threats as serious.


So, going out of your way to cast doubt on the matter, when you have no idea about anything - that is the best way to handle it? When did they cast doubt upon you personally?

Why do you assume that other people are fullblown experts in handling threats?
Most unexperienced people who are thrown into strange and uneasy situations tend to stick to old routines and habits while trying to figure out what to do. People who have just lost close ones can be seen joking and laughing just minutes later. That means nothing, what have happened have happened, and when people don't know what to do, they stick to what they know, without care for whether others find it reasonable or not.
Yuan Moons
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Come on Tom, don't say your BS detector isn't off the charts with this. You must know the millions of empty threats that keyboard warriors post on the internet everyday. I think that's all people are saying. Don't let them play you like a fiddle
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