All were politely requested, just as you request referrals, or you request permission to put your promotional literature in the kids' goodie bags.

(I usually say something like, "If you were happy with the show, would you take a few moments to write a reference letter for us? Thank you.")

They are not paid endorsements.

- Donald.

I do think PB may be right in regards that a lot of this may stem from cultural differences between the culture in Britain and the culture here in the States & Canada.

Perhaps people over in the UK just look differently upon marketing then we do here. However, I still do not see how anyone, regardless of culture, would find fault in a SINCERE thank you.

I am not talking about a thank you that is part of a sales letter or a thank you that is asking and begging for another show.

I am simply saying a kind thank you in the form of a hand written card or even an e-mail just thanking the person for their kindness and generosity.

I also feel that it has been stated, or implied, that a person who uses marketing or uses a reward program is a person who either 1) has a bad show or 2) is not doing very good and does so because he or she has to.

I can not vouch for everyone here and in some cases this may very well be true. However, I can vouch for myself and I can also vouch for Donald.

We both do a LOT of shows year round and have been very successful in our own markets for years. Our shows are good and we know this from repeat bookings and referral shows given and sent our way every month.

We also both receive many forms of thanks that are NOT solicited in the least. These come in the form of verbal thanks, cards and even letters of reference sent to us.

These people do not have to do this for us, but they do because they feel that we are giving them a far superior product and meeting and exceeding their own needs.

Even with this success rate, Donald and I still market ourselves because it is the right thing to do if you are serious about your magic business. It is good practice.

Just my opinion on all of this.

I do sincerely thank everyone for posting their thoughts and opinions here. We may not all agree but it is great to know there is a place we can voice opinions, however strong they may be, and have a deep discussion on issues.

Kyle

O.K., I've conceded that for the right folks a referral award scheme works. And when I mentioned "folks like, Clive" who have combined a quality show with a marketing system that works for them that includes folks like Kyle and Donald who have found a marketing system that works for them and combined it with their own quality entertainment.

Kyle, I don't think it has been either stated or implied that any of us are doing bad shows but I can see where you got the feeling.

I think there may be a little paranoia seeping through the edges of this thread. I never thought you were referring to Phillip in your 'fantastic show' statement either. I think there is a cultural difference and maybe we should just leave it at that.

Donald, your post regarding thank you cards didn't help Transatlantic relations since it suggests the system doesn't work because our citizens are ungracious and ungrateful.

If you really want to get into why there is a cultural difference then may I even things up by pondering whether it is because your citizens are more gullible?

I mean, would a "SINCERE thank you" ever be part of a "scheme"? So there's a couple of ways at looking at that and both are rather troublesome so I think we should leave it at a cultural difference.

George

You are right George, that did come across as arrogrant and judgemental of Europeans. I apologize. That was not my feeling nor intent.

Thanks for catching me on that.

- Donald.



As I said earlier, these thank yous (calls, cards, and/or gifts) should be done with sincerity and honesty. No falseness about it.

When I took the Dale Carnegie Course, we were taught the difference between sincere appreciation and flattery. More on this in his writings.

As Phillip has implied here, keep it sincere, or don't say it!

- Donald.

Hi Donald,
I was not trying to say that you or anyone else was insincere but rather that here in the UK even with the truest intentions, many would consider you so if you sent out thank you cards and other such things. It is just too mushy for us. Mr Nicey don't really wash over here.

That does not mean we are rude to each other or that we are not nice to each other, just that we accept that others are gratuitous and do not require the reinforcement through letters and gifts.

Phillip



Pretty confident that Billy or Emazdad would not even hint to a client that we wanted a referral or thank you letter. Again, it's not the British thing.

Possibly from a business or organisation but not from kids parties.

If we had to ask for them we would lose the warm feeling you get when such letters turn up and I would personally feel as if I had cheapened myself.

Phillip

Hi Phillip,

I'm at a loss of how to respond to your comment, as I read this quote on page one of this thread, post # 15:



It seemed as though you were asking verbally for referrals, just not rewarding them or thanking for them after the fact.

Guess I misunderstood what Clive (Emazdad) wrote.

- Donald.

When I leave the party I say to the client, "Thank you very much, I've had a great time and if you're pleased with what I've done, please recommend me to your friends." To which they normally answer, "Oh we will, the kids have had a great time, thank you" or words to that effect.

I would never ask for written endorsements, that's a bit cheeky. I've got lots of letters from happy customers that have been sent without any hint from me.

To me, a written endorsement doesn't mean as much if you've had to ask for it.

Personally, I think it is OK to ask for a written endorsement.

After all, you asked for referrals, and you asked for permission to send your marketing materials home with the children.

This doesn't seem too different, in my mind.

I understand your personal reluctance to use these business methods, though, if you feel that your customers might be antagonistic towards them.

Again, this must be a cultural difference.

However, I have met a British entertainer recently who has adapted these sorts of things to work for him, without offence to his customers.

- Donald.

P.S. Phillip did say in his post that you guys didn't even hint at a referral, but Clive made it pretty clear that he finds it appropriate to ask for one in passing, as he leaves. You are just discussing the level of your request, not that you wouldn't do it.

Well I know I would not even hint. Though there is a big difference between the type of casual comment made by Emazdad and asking for letters which most people would agree to if they liked your show or not out of embarrassment in saying "No".



How does he really know?

One thing us Brits are known for is not complaining. E.G. most people would not complain about food at a restaurant but just not eat there again.

Whilst there has been an increase in complaining about things over the last few years through encouragement to do so in the media, most people simply do not unless backed up against a wall.

Phillip

I don't know that I have a ton to add to this conversation but I do see a fallacy in the thinking about marketing.

I can say without hesitation that ALL of the super-successful businesses (magicians included) in the world today owe their success to marketing. And if you were to take a look at the history of their marketing practices, you would see an INCREASE in marketing money spent/amount of marketing as the business grows.

Now when I talk about super-successful business, I'm talking like IBM/Verizon/Microsoft/David Blaine type success.

When your marketing starts to stabilize, so will your market growth. Now if you intend to stay doing only the shows your doing now, with maybe a few larger ones, then keep what you have. But if you want to grow, maybe go from birthday parties to office meetings, or from church variety shows/fundraisers, to the local theater, you have to increase your marketing.

Let me say that again, you HAVE to increase your marketing.

I guess my biggest point is that marketing equates to business. It is the layman's only way of knowing you exist. 'Word of Mouth' marketing is the best, of course, but it is also the HARDEST to do well. Any help it can get will do nothing but increase your business and profits.

I said this once a while back...
you have to spend money to make money.

If you look at something like a referral reward program as "Just another cost" or "Look at how much it costs me" then you have this marketing thing backwards.

A "How much profit do I stand to make from this small investment" or "How can this small investment get me more business" attitude is a much better way to go.

And finally... let me make an large observation:

If you are giving away $5 per show and it's affecting your quality of life, you're in the wrong business.

Amen to that, Adam!

- Donald

Great thoughts on the subject. I learned a lot by reading all these responses. I strongly believe in marketing, to market or not was never a question. The way I went about doing it was up for debate. I still haven't decided on whether or not I will do a referral rewards program yet, but just reading these posts has given me other ideas and sparked the fire to promote myself more. Thanks!

A second BIG AMEN to that Adam. Nicely stated and I totally agree,

Kyle

Instead of paying $5 dollars a time for my customers to do what they already do well enough for free, I'm spending all the $5 dollars I've saved on a holiday, I fly to Florida for a couple of weeks on Thursday, which to my mind is money much better spent.



I do all that already without any extra marketing. Some comes from Yellow Pages, others phone because I was reccomended.

I've just done the first of 12 dates at a local Adventure Park - Magic and Balloons. I didn't send them any marketing material, I was booked by a company last year to do Magic and Balloons at their workers' families day out which was being held at the park. 2 weeks later I got the call from the park and got the booking at a higher rate than their other performers. Why? Because they were impressed with what they saw me do that day. (Mind you I've seen their other performers and wasn't very impressed so even if I'd put half the effort in I would have looked better than the others.)

It is true what you say though, you have to aim any marketing you do at the type of bookings you want. If, like me, you just specialise in entertaining kids, it's a market that, once you're up and running, doesn't need much marketing to keep it going. Every kid in the audience has a party, you've just got to be good enough to make them ask their parents for you, any leaflets in party bags are just to ensure they have your phone number.

Other branches demand more marketing. If I were to branch out into another area of magic then I would look at different methods to kick start the new business. If I wanted to work the restaurants in Plymouth I would have to market heavily at the start, but once it took off and I was established in that field, and if I was as good at that as I am with my present stuff, I would look at the marketing and stop doing any marketing I then considered unnesseccary.

As it is I've increased my prices and increased the gap between shows at the weekends to reduce the amount of shows I do without lowering my income. I did this because I was spending too much time working and not enough time enjoying the fruits of my labour.

If, like me, you stopped worrying about the phone ringing, because your confident it will, and are turning away more enquiries than you book, then mass marketing is not needed.

If you still worry about the phone ringing, and worry if an enquirer doesn't book you, or are still at the stage where you'll take any booking anywhere because you worry about losing the job then any marketing is going to make you feel better.

Some people are just in the habit of continually marketing themselves and would probably find that a lot of what they do is unnesseccary as they have built up such a reputation for great shows that if they were to ease back on the marketing it would not make any difference to their work load. But as they maybe put a lot of the credit towards their marketing, rather than their talents, they can't see it.

There is also the guy who has a rubbish show, and has to market a lot just to get new work in as he doesn't get any reccomends, re-bookings etc.

This topic has highlighted a few cultural differences and has made very interesting reading, as with every topic in the end it comes down to one thing - personal choice.

If this thread continues, I'm going miss the rest of it, as this is my last visit to the Café until after my holiday.

See you all in a couple of weeks.

Sorry but I know from experience that this is not true in all cases.

I do not just do birthday parties, I actually limit my birthday parties. As an example of word of mouth, I will give you a real life run down.

I did a show for a birthday party in a house in Pennaly (near Tenby - a holiday resort about 15 miles from my home). As it happens, the booker told the guys at work about how good the show was. These guys were managers of the Milford Docks company (my home town). They were in the process of changing from a commercial dock to a marina and to attract visitors they booked me from 11am to 4pm for three weekdays a week from June to September plus any events (including corporate hospitality).

I did this for 5 years and got very good fees.

Now they have established entertainment on the marina, a bowling alley and so on, so I just do the events and functions.

The manager of the docks company is a board member of the Milford Haven Port Authority (a non profit organisation that owns the marina and the docks company plus have control of the waterways). He recommends me for their functions (I do lots). A couple of members of the Port Authority Board are also top brass at the local oil refinery - Texaco. So yes, I get work from them too.

Last year they booked a local tourist attraction for 2 nights. They told the manager of the attraction that they wanted me to entertain, so I was booked 2 performances a night for 2 nights.

The attraction has a 750 seater theatre and a huge stage which came from the Millennium Dome in London.

Because the Attraction liked my show, they booked me for the season. They made no attempt to negotiate the price. They were happy to pay me the same fees as per the Refinery shows and I assure you this was not cheap!

This is just an example and there are more smaller bookings that I have left out. Also, I have many more examples of this type of thing with other clients. Just last week I was called by the local authority in charge of road safety and asked if I did a road safety show. I explained that I do not and gave them some names of people that did. The reply was "yes, but we really want you as you are recommended. Could you put one together for us?"

SO it looks as if I will be doing that in the near future.

I have just finished 140 environmental puppet shows (since Jan) for the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park Authority and they have asked me to create a new show based on characters in a book they are publishing soon.

So I know that your statement above is not entirely accurate.



No one said it was effecting the quality of our lives and Emazdad's loss over 12 months works out to £2,500 ($4,500) if you look at the previous threads. But if you are giving this away when you have no need to then more fool you.

Now perhaps you need to (I do not know) but as things stand I do not.

Phillip

I'll triple Amen to you Adam...

Owning a marketing and advertising firm that caters to small businesses, I know that here in the States smart marketers who implement strong marketing strategies succeed over their non-marketing savvy competition every time!

No disrespect but how come you are not a full time magi then?

Kind of seems like you have a personal interest in promoting marketing if it's your job. I notice that Kyle too is in a similar position (heavy marketer in graphic design trade but not full time pro).

Phillip

Phillip:

I can understand how you may see this and that is quite fine. I am not a full time performer ONLY because I have a love and passion for two jobs. Both of which I enjoy tremendously. I would not want to give up either.

I love art and design and will continue to do so. I love helping other magicians with their problems if I can and if they want me to.

I also LOVE magic and I maximize every single weekend I possibly can. In my own weekend work and festival market, I am maxed out to the limit. In this way I am doing far more work then I ever wanted to do.

If I wanted to go full time into magic, I certainly could without any problems at all. I know that much for a fact.

But, for now, I like the benefits of both jobs I enjoy equally well.

I only promote marketing NOT because I enjoy design. I promote marketing because I KNOW IT WORKS!! It is as simple as that.

Kyle

I am not saying that marketing does not work, just that it is a transitional tool from one business position to another and not an absolute requirement if you have a good enough show and are already established.



OK, so why market more then?

It makes little sense to spend money on getting more work that you cannot handle.

You would not sell 2,000 tickets to a 500 seat theatre knowing that you would have to refund the extra 1500 people and compensate them would you?

Phillip

[quote]On 2004-04-06 12:14, p.b.jones wrote:
OK, so why market more then?

It makes little sense to spend money on getting more work that you cannot handle. /quote]

Phillip -

You are thinking about this in the wrong way. Although it is about growing your business to some extent, it is really more about growing your relationships with your current customers so that they are very deep. Any opportunity to do this is wonderful. It is truly about thinking about what's in it for them, not what's in it for me. The more you can add others-focused thinking to your business, the better a business person you will be.

(Please don't take me wrong, I am not saying that you personally don't think about your customers. I am also not saying that you personally are not others-focused. I am also not saying that you personally are a bad business person.)

What I am saying is that it is healthy to be others-focused, and if this is a way to keep you on track, go for it. You really have no idea what the returns on doing this would be for you, because you haven't tried it. You are still only looking at it as an expense, rather than an investment in new opportunities, and an investment in your friendships with customers.

(To clarify, I am not talking about "buying" friendships, but rather growing them in healthy ways. Read Gary Chapman's book, "The 5 Love Languages" for more insight as to how to grow relationships with other people. Receiving gifts is only one of the 5 languages that people respond to.)

- Donald.