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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Tricky business Ľ Ľ Is it Flaming, Ignorance Or Simply The Way Of A Younger Online Generation? (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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TomBoleware
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To be clear, Iím not saying donít share, just donít be disappointed or get frustrated when you throw stuff out thinking everyone will welcome it. By all means help as many as you can. Helping others is the key to success and itís important to practice the habit of helping when you can. But you canít force your help on anyone. Become a person that others will feel good about Ďaskingí for your help.

But anyway, there is no doth you and your brother will turn out alright. Thanks for what you do here, and I do wish you the best.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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Something else REALLY important to keep in mind that seems always lost. IF you want the information and want to learn and want these things there is nothing wrong with it. You are free NOT to listen because your feelings get hurt, but it seems as if it is to your own detriment.

You need to learn how to listen, not tell others how to speak. Mostly people confuse what happens in mentor relationships wit teaching. It is not. Absolutely not anything even close. While information is imparted, HOW it is imparted is not so important. When you are a teacher and have a job as a teacher and want to teach people things along those lines then it is your job and it MATTERS how people do that. No doubt.

Getting free advice, and learning from mentors is 100% different. Go to any one of the mentors I had (And there were a LOT of them.) and tell them they have to worry about how they make you feel and it will be the last thing you ever get from them. No question. Not all feel this way, but many do. All the touchy feely nonsense goes right out the window. It is just not important.

WHAT is being learned IS important. THAT is the point. So if you are looking for people to mentor you the above advice in my experience is the absolute worst ever. For the reason that it centers on YOU AND YOUR NEEDS. When in reality what should be focused on is what you are LEARNING. The subject is important, not how you feel at any given moment for whatever reason.

Your mileage may vary and that is ok. Nothing wrong with different experiences. But I just think that wanting free information from someone is fine, but telling them how to give that information to you is crazy.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Ok I agree you canít tell the teacher how to teach. But you can choose your teacher, and I personally and most everyone I know, would rather have a teacher that I feel comfortable with. Probably not someone I felt was a jerk. The best teachers teach by example. And as Iíve said before, habits are catching and if youíre not careful you can catch some really bad habits.

Thereís a saying, "Show me who your friends are and Iíll tell you who you are.Ē Same with teachers, show me your teachersÖ.

Choose wisely.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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Yep choose wisely. For example I would never choose someone who is a whiner and always rah rah rah no matter what. Never try to learn from someone who can't admit they have made a mistake. I would never try to learn from someone without actual experience in the subject matter. Or worse yet with information from decades ago when they failed.

But then again I'm not selling anything so there ya go.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Ok I agree you canít tell the teacher how to teach. But you can choose your teacher
Tom


Yeah, I've got to disagree with this too. You are making some assumptions that are very limiting and general. You are assuming that there are many teachers out there all teaching the same thing and you have your choice of teacher based on YOUR choice likes, comfort and dislikes. This isn't basic math or sewing we are talking about here.

This is valid if you are a newbie and know little or nothing in a space with many that can teach, train, mentor or assist.

That is nothing like what I and others are talking about here. In reality you don't have such a choice. For example, what I teach, you can not learn elsewhere. So the only choice you have is yes or no you are intersted in me and my content or not. Then of course that is if I choose to accept or work with you. Same for Danny's very specialized knowledge. It isn't available anywhere else from anyone.

Yours is a very basic perception as if all information is available from anyone at any time for your choosing. That is crazy. Also I an others are talking about very specialized and unique information. What Danny learned from his mentors was NOT available from anyone but the person and family that created it. You, the "learner" have no choice or options if you are interested in learning it. You do so on their terms, in their context, at their access and their preferences, in their preference of delivery, not yours. That is absurd.

The problem is much of what you speak of Tom is general and basic business that is common knowledge (not specialized information) that IS available from many sources - google, classes, lessons, books, DVDs, etc. It is not unique or exclusive information. Sure someone may have an exclusive technique, method or approach (for example a surgeon), or a magician that has his own effect or method, but that is a single piece of limited information, not complete and comprehensive, exclusive or little known or uncommon specific information.

Your over-simplifed view of things may be part of the problem in many of your perceptions. Everyone, everything and all information is not equal or the same. The more exclusive the info, the more premium the access and limited availability.

When you are the only one in the world, or the only one living that has such information that puts him in a much different position that what you are referring to and considering.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2017, Robb wrote:
Danny, MindPro, okay, I get that... you want to give back and share your knowledge. YET you are continually frustrated in that endeavor on this site. MindPro and I are members of another forum and there the conversations are much more productive. I truly appreciate the feedback and information I receive on that site. But why cast pearls before swine? That does seem to be your feelings about the Cafť. I mean, I don't see Copperfield here or Maven or even many of the bigger "magician's magicians". Also, do you both sell products or services for magicians and mentalists? If so, excuse me for thinking that perhaps your motives are not entirely altruistic.


Sorry, you are incorrect Copperifled, Derren Brown, Blaine and Max are on here (Max just recently in the last few weeks posting). While they aren't here under their names, they are here and follow quite regularly. I know this for fact and when asked they typically will tell you the same.

Also I don't sell products to mentalists or magicians. I don't create products for mentalists and magicians. I sell industry resources to entertainers, big difference. Out of the nearly 100 resources I have created only 3 have been made available to this community, and these were base don their longtime constantly asking (and needing) relentlessly for over 10 years. Lets deal in the facts not a perception you have cretaed or choose to believe.

Yes it is very frustrating when you are offering to help people, giving then information of which they don't even recognize the value of and then focus on completely unrealted thoughts, concerns and perceptions. I could care less of someone isn't interested in such content, what I have a problem is is when they prevent others from doing so, participating and making their own perceptions based on anything but facts and reality. People come to this forum to learn and improve their business. If someone isn't here for that reason fine, but let the others that are here for such the ability to be able to without derailment or ridicule. Again, a major difference from a hobbyist or enthusiast and a pro looking to advance and succeed.

If people prefer to learn the hard way or never learn such information at all, that is their perogative.
charliecheckers
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Wow! Mindpro hits another home run- in describing realities of the limitations one has when seeking teachers of specialized learning. One often has to cross cultural and language barriers, let alone personality differences. He wrote: "You, the "learner" have no choice or options if you are interested in learning it. You do so on their terms, in their context, at their access and their preferences, in their preference of delivery, not yours. That is absurd." This is so very true. I have personally experienced this reality many times. You also often have to do their bidding in terms of cost. Qualifying yourself is also not uncommon.
TomBoleware
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Getting back to the main topic;

Mindpro, what you donít understand, and this should fit in with the main topic of the thread, is this is a public forum. All the members are welcome to come here and post. You canít shut people out just because they are not on your level. They have just as much right to be here as you do. A 14 year old with no experience can come here and post his opinion and you have no right to bash him for doing so. That is the rules, not my rules, the Cafť rules. This is not a place for professionals only. The magic community is made up of a wide variety of people with many skill levels.

Sure we should respect those who can make a living with a great hobby like magic. But you canít force respect on people, you have to earn respect. Most of us respect and look up to the big names in magic like Copperfield, Blaine, etc, because they are NOT HERE telling us how great they are and how little the rest of us know.

I can understand your frustration, but you bring that on yourself. You choose to be here, and membership here doesnít come with any special privileges, we are all equal here and should be treated as such.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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Tom do you read your posts before hitting submit?

In so many cases it is not the kids who are the problem but rather those who want to just bloviate and portend knowledge.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Thanks for telling me what I don't understand Tom, however once again, you are wrong. No one ever shuts anyone out for not being on their level. If anything, as Danny has said, it is just the opposite, guys that should understand and know better like yourself create an environment that prevents others from wanting to be here.

Secondly, hobbyists and enthusiasts here on the Cafť are more often than not (with only rare exception) interested in the tricks and performance, they have no desire about the business side of this, so they typically are not here in Tricky Business. This forum is for workers that want to learn, improve or progress their business. Nowhere on the Cafť are they looking for more real information and less opinions than here. So those you claim are "bashed" rarely participate here. On the other hand there are many professionals that DO lurk here, many on daily or regular basis, as I hear from them regularly. Including the several names mentioned above. Including Walter and many others.

When a 14 year old comes here I haven't seen anyone BASH him/her, if anything they are offered guidance and real-world info to help and assist them, usually based on their current level or position. I remember being 12 and being treated like a kid and not being taken seriously in my quest for interest and information on this business, so if anything I have a special understanding for such members IF they ever did wander in here. Young Charlie and Checkers, young Kameron, and many others have been offered the time, patience and understanding in addition to the quality information regularly offered. Again, I think your own perception on this and many other things is quite off. You believe what you want, not what is real.

Same for the entertainers I work with. You have it in your head that I am some unfriendly, conceited, difficult person to work with. I challenge you to find anyone that has worked with me that supports this. Again, your own hangup or belief not based on fact or reality.

There is a lot of delusion here. Nobody is shut out here (unless they are puffing or making false claims which several here will call them out on. This fakery helps no one or and serves no purpose.) Some may not like the real-world advice they are given, some may be hard to digest or accept but that doesn't mean they are shut out. Magicians tend to have difficulty accepting things they don't want to hear or accept.

I KNOW what this topic and post was about, I created it, and no, nothing you've contributed so far is on-track with the intention of this thread. When others chime in in the proper context of the post, you took it in other directions. The only frustrating part is when others try to take the time to explain this to you and you don't get it. You somehow take it as an attack. You seem to think in generalities, rather than the specifics often presented here. You do tend to twist things to your own perception, not necessarily that of the intended. This of course followed by the question Danny (and so many others ask me) regularly ask is why if you are not an entertainer, why if you don't operate and entertainment business, do you always chime in and have so much to say about entertainment business and operations (the topic of this entire forum) when you often clearly are just offer biased opinion and no experience to offer from? It is a legitimate question.

I've defended you many times to many people but they do have a valid point of which Danny asks regularly to never receive a real answer.

People are not all equal, experience and status are not all equal, whether you care to accept it or believe this misconception or not. Information is not all the same either. Perhaps this is at the root of the problems and frustration, but again, I and others choose to deal in reality, while perhaps you and others resist. THAT is the frustrating point.


I truly believe the reason for such a division here isn't status or levels of experience, it is that many here operate from a layman's perspective, while others operate from an entertainer's or professional's perspective. Two completely different set of eyes and mindsets.

The very first thing I say in my resources, coaching and training, is you MUST deal in reality and honesty, otherwise you are only wasting your (and others) time. Perhaps this is difficult for many magicians since they are so based in deception and un-reality, I'm not sure, but they need to learn to separate the two to progress and truly learn and evolve.
TomBoleware
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Mindpro,

I completely agree that people are not all equal; experience and status are not all equal. But my point is, if you want people to respect you then you must treat them as if they were. When you disagree with a post itís not that hard to ignore it, move on, and give your own opinion. Itís all the back and forth 'you are wrong and I am right' that is the distraction here. Go back and look at my last 100 posts and it is clear that Danny or you one come a running with, the you have no experience, I am right and you are wrong stuff. That only starts the war that others donít like. Nobody wants to come here and listen to us bicker among ourselves.

So why donít we make a deal. You and Danny donít question what I say and I wonít question what you say. I will post my opinion and yíall can post yours. The readers are smart enough to choose what they want to believe. I have confidence in each and every one of them. We could have a wonderful place here if we were a team giving advice that the readers could choose from, without having to listen to all the bickering. Deal?

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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thomasR
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Magicians and Illusionists are a strange type... most are very controlling and want to be involved in every step of a production. They want to be the writer, producer, choreographer, sound designer, lighting designer, business manager, booking agent, marketing director... etc. This is not normal in the entertainment industry. While some artists want more control than others... they don't rely on themselves to be the one who makes every single decision for them.

That may be why there is a bit of resistance in a forum like this... we all think we know best.

I'm not different.. I got into lighting design because I wanted my "illusion show" to have fancy lights (This was when I was in middle school / high school).... and learning lighting sent me into a whole different career.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,

I completely agree that people are not all equal; experience and status are not all equal. But my point is, if you want people to respect you then you must treat them as if they were. When you disagree with a post itís not that hard to ignore it, move on, and give your own opinion. Itís all the back and forth 'you are wrong and I am right' that is the distraction here. Go back and look at my last 100 posts and it is clear that Danny or you one come a running with, the you have no experience, I am right and you are wrong stuff. That only starts the war that others donít like. Nobody wants to come here and listen to us bicker among ourselves.

So why donít we make a deal. You and Danny donít question what I say and I wonít question what you say. I will post my opinion and yíall can post yours. The readers are smart enough to choose what they want to believe. I have confidence in each and every one of them. We could have a wonderful place here if we were a team giving advice that the readers could choose from, without having to listen to all the bickering. Deal?

Tom

Funny how you leave out your sarcastic nonsense that starts it all. You add a smiley face like you think it makes it all better.

And by the way bickering takes 2 at least.

So how about you only post about things you have current experience in and so will I? Deal?

See Tom the problem you have is you think it is personal attacks. It isn't. So if I disagree I an free to say so. You then take it personally. Don't do that. That is on you.

You having no experience is just a fact. Sorry.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,
Itís all the back and forth 'you are wrong and I am right' that is the distraction here. Go back and look at my last 100 posts and it is clear that Danny or you one come a running with, the you have no experience, I am right and you are wrong stuff. That only starts the war that others donít like. Nobody wants to come here and listen to us bicker among ourselves.

So why donít we make a deal. You and Danny donít question what I say and I wonít question what you say. I will post my opinion and yíall can post yours. Deal?

Tom


No, Tom it would be impossible to make such a "deal." It would be possible perhaps if we were all just dealing with only opinions, but we are not. It might also be quite possible if we are all dealing with apples to apples not kumquats to watermelons. When two people have vast experience and still work in this space each and every day of our lives, and another has little or no experience, it is not an equal conversation or exchange (unless solely based on opinion, and even then, not really because two of their opinions are based still on knowledge and experience and one on solely opinion or imagined perception. Two vastly different things.

This medium allows us all to be here together and have access to each other and the same space, topics, etc. That does not make all equal in their knowledge, experience and offerings. We are NOT all peers just because the medium allows access.

You don't seem to understand in the threads where you don't post your uninformed or inexperienced opinions, the so-called "bickering" you speak of doesn't exist. Same for when a few others here were banned to dropped out, it also immediately disappeared. I'm sorry you can see that.

I could care less if you respect me Tom. It is my content, knowledge and experience that that speaks for me and earns respect. My posts and content is not intended for you. You force that situation. You are not a performer, you don't have an entertainment business, and you seem to offer little to anything based in experience in these two areas. (You have a blog for your opinions, which s great). MANY others do respect my content and have had amazing results just on the free info I offer here. Same for Danny. What is amazing is how many here will (to use your words" Bash us or disagree with us, yet (and Danny will correct me if I'm wrong) will submit to our agencies or production companies to want to be represented by us or to work our venues, clients, tours, etc.

You see, you said it yourself I another post somewhere here that (and I'm paraphrasing here) to you this is just like some old friends casually sitting around shooting the sh*t at a seniors home. To myself and others here this is something completely different for us. It is a community of performers that come here to learn about, improve or evolve their entertainment business. So right from the get go, our foundational interests are not just different, but opposite.

It's also not about "disagreeing" as you seem to perceive it. When someone is offering incorrect, improper or completely blatantly uninformed or misleading information and passing it off as real, it is about calling this out to the community. It is not at all about disagreeing.

You are right about your last 100 posts, they ARE based in you having no experience on the topic as Danny likes to regularly point out, yet you still feel the need to be heard. THAT is distracting.
TomBoleware
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Oh well, you can't say I didn't try.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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You can still stop being sarcastic, you can still stop bickering and you can still stop giving uninformed opinions.

Why don't you accept my deal Tom? How about that? You didn't try anything except to make certain you can continue to spout uninformed nonsense without challenge.

To quote you "You can't say I didn't try".
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magic_son
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Robb,
Is it against the rules the name the forum that you mentioned?
Ken Northridge
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Sorry, you are incorrect Copperifled, Derren Brown, Blaine and Max are on here (Max just recently in the last few weeks posting). While they aren't here under their names, they are here and follow quite regularly. I know this for fact and when asked they typically will tell you the same.


Copperfield? Really?

I'm not sure why experienced pros post here but I'm sure glad they do. I have learned so much here over the years. And its completely FREE!I like that rate of return.

The allure of facebook has pulled me away recently but I return mainly to see if I can help someone else, give them some free advice. Give back. Its almost funny to me when my advice is ignored or challenged. But then again I have 5 children who ignore my advice or never ask. And frankly, I did the same thing when I was young. I thought I knew it all.

When I was in High School I was preparing to be the next David Copperfield. I couldnít wait to be done with having to learn about things I didnít care about. After I graduated High School, when it was time to set the world on fire, I booked 2 shows! I fell flat on my face! Thatís when my never ending journey of learning from others began.

I am grateful for the people here that are willing to share.

I donít think this lack of comprehension is anything new. There have always been and always will be people that think they are too smart to listen. I feel as though Iíve only begun to learn.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Tricky business Ľ Ľ Is it Flaming, Ignorance Or Simply The Way Of A Younger Online Generation? (6 Likes)
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