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Dannydoyle
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Who but you said anything about not keeping up?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny at one time I was considered, and turned it down, for a position as corporate magician for Fleming Foods, one of the world’s largest food wholesalers. At the time I was doing shows for some of the Piggly Wiggly groups here in the south which was a part of Fleming Foods. So I know a little about building relationships to position yourself. I’ve moved up the relationship ladder many times in my life to get what I wanted. If you would ever allow me to talk you might just learn something. But the odds of that happening are not good. Is It?

Anyways, Walter sorry for having to ramble on your thread. Maybe others can add something to it too.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Dannydoyle
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So this is you NOT talking?

Tom you have no experience.

Again I ask who but you said not to keep up?

But don't forget it was YOU who wanted to be sarcastic about me and Mindoro. Hi figure.

How is it you can be so woefully uninformed about a market you were so close to being the undisputed king of?

And if things have changed much your out dated experience from last century must be as well.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2017, Donald Dunphy wrote:
BTW, I guess that I'm a "consumer market performer" (not an amateur), because I use business cards, postcards, brochures, giveaways to children in my audiences (with my contact info for their parents), etc., in addition to my website. It specialize in shows for children's audiences and family audiences. It's not uncommon to have people ask me for my business card (or my postcard giveaway, which also has my contact info), after seeing me perform.

Could you please define "consumer market performer" a little bit more? I don't know if I've heard that phrase before.

- Donald



I think it is great that Donald has asked this question and sincerely wants to understand this. I mention consumer vs. Professional markets here quite regularly. When I do several things ALWAYS happen. People think I am trying to create a divide between performers or levels of performers (which I am not), or worse yet, incorrectly believe I am trying to put myself on a level above or better than others. Both couldn't be more wrong.

This is not an opinion, it is not something I have manufactured or made up but a true component of entertainment business.

Anytime consumer vs. professional markets comes up, it is almost immediately taken as a dig towards kids performers. It certainly is not. It is much more a part of a greater element of a performer being completely honest with themselves about their level and positioning and of course the markets they serve. This is one of the foundational elements that must be determined and understood before proceeding with ones entertainment business.

Right along with this comes the issue of professionalism. There is a common misconception that professionalism only involves or applies to full-timer workers. Again, couldn't be further from the truth. I have a 50 point criteria of what composes a "professional." Many miss the boat or have their own false belief that they accept. Again, not the industry's perspective.

It is so nice to see Donald truly asking to learn more about this rather than taking the soooo typical position of "being talked down to" or immediately accepting this as a detriment or swipe towards those working the consumer markets.

The truth is many performers DO NOT deal in actual reality. Not about them, their performance, their business or the markets and clients they serve. This is a harsh reality, but one well worth ones time and understanding. Instead they choose to deal in their PERCEIVED reality of something they truly do not understand. The problem then of course is that everything the do is then based upon this misbelief in the first place. I've said it here before and will continue to speak about it, entertainers are delusional. They often don't understand the true picture. Instead they accept the fake picture that best serves them, that they WANT TO believe. It is often not reality. I see it weekly, time and time again.

Rather than getting defensive or going on the attack, (or focusing on why doesn't this guy post under his real name!),it is about time someone is taking the time to understand this proven concept. Kudos to Donald.

To add to Walter & Danny's understanding, consumer and professional markets, these can also be defined and identified not only by the buyer, but by the market themselves, If they have professional credentials, associations, trade events and publications, qualifying and acceptance criteria, industry-specific resources, techniques and qualifications, these are signs of professional markets. Of course the level of which the operate on is also a great identifying factor. The only place this becomes slightly blurry is in markets that appear to be one way and are actually the opposite or markets that appear that they could be both. Again the right perspective and understanding easily clears this up.

In my Working With Agents & Agency's Book I identify many of the common misconceptions, of course including the one Tom offered about professional markets using agencies. In my recent industry speaking appearance and the live training seminar I hosted in Las Vegas the issue of doing working company picnics and holiday events ARE NOT working the corporate market was prominent. Once explained, it was clear as a bell to many. Then Danny's take on because you work for the local affiliate on a consumer level, DOES NOT again make you a corporate performer.

This is exactly the same as the guys that use a Happy Amp and falsely believes they are using a professional sound system. Not in any way a dig toward Happy Amp, but rather a fact regarding the use and understanding of "a professional sound system." Again this too has been well-docmented in my previous posts.

It would be great if more people would be open to learning this real and valuable stuff, rather than defending their incorrct, uninformed opinions.

Walter has brought to the fore several great topics that most here could learn from if they would just be open minded and drop the defensiveness.

Great topics Walter.
TomBoleware
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Mindpro, I am not being defensive, other than responding to the personal attacks from Danny.

I too have never heard of the term ‘consumer market’ used the way you and Danny use it here.
Maybe you could show us someplace else that it is used that way. Any links?

In the business world the words consumer market is used to describe buyers who purchase goods and
services for consumption. Where in the entertainment industry is it used this way other than maybe describing
record, or dvd sales made to the public?

Just curious really.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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I thought you had so much experience in this?

And it is not just Mindoro and I who use it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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No I don’t have experience using it that way, never used it once that way.
So I’m simply asking, who else using it that way?

It certainly sounds belittling when used like it is sometimes used here, just thought now
would be a good time to prove that it is being used that way in other places. But no big deal.


Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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You claim to have experience in it though. Obviously not.

https://masterful-marketing.com/marketing-b2b-vs-b2c/
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Back on topic...

Business Cards in Corporate Market -

I agree that it shouldn't list the services, but I'm not sure I agree that it should not have a photo. "Magician, Illusionist, Juggler, Acrobat, Mentalist" - what do you put on your card? The word "Entertainer" is too broad a term, and any of the above specifics point to stereotype images that could be good or bad. I think it would be wise to put an image with the title.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I too have never heard of the term ‘consumer market’ used the way you and Danny use it here.
Maybe you could show us someplace else that it is used that way. Any links?

Tom



No. I'm not in the business of looking up links to have to prove information to others. I teach, train and educate, not convince. I also can teach one that you put on your sock before your shoe, but again, I don't have any links to provide to prove the facts.

Using electronics for example, let's say the VCR that was a staple for two decades. There were consumer VCRs that were used for home use, and professional VCRs that were used in television, media outlets and professional video production services. Then (to complicate matters even worse) there was a Prosumer line by Panasonic, JVC, Sony and several others. Not directly related, but a similar example on a more general level.

It has been quite common knowledge in the professional entertainment industry for decades. I would say I first learned of it from Steve Allen and Phyllis Diller in probably the late 70s or early 80s.

This is another reason for many misconceptions among performers in pricing. For example, using magicians, some will hear that "Mr. Magic" gets $10,000 for a 45 minute corporate event. Yet "Mr. Magic Café Magician" only gets $550 for a "corporate event." Then Mr. Magic Café Magician comes on the forum to proclaim "I don't believe Mr. Magic gets anywhere near $10,000 for a booking. Impossible. Implying he is a liar, and internet phoney and so on. In reality Mr. Magic does get 10K a show in the real corporate market. And no, there is no way Mr. Magic Café Magician could ever do so working a Christmas Party for the local T-mobile store. They are comparing watermelons and kumquats. Two entirely different things. The professional Mr. Magic working the professional market realizes this (and feels no need to prove or defend himself as it is truly his reality). Yet Mr. Magic Café Magician is not working the corporate market, in actuality he is working a consumer market bookings that only pays several hundred dollars. Yet Mr. Magic Café Magician will never learn or possibly understand this.

Two entirely different things. Yet the only one that doesn't realize it is the one asking for proof, and flinging untruths because of his lack of knowledge and understanding. Also likely due to his lack of professionalism.

This premise exists on almost every element of entertainment business - marketing, selling, exhibiting, promoting, production, bookings, clients, and literally every element. Even feedback, perception and testimonials. There are consumer testimonials and professional testimonials. Consumer credits and professional credits. Consumer promotional materials and videos, and professional promo and videos. The list goes on an on. And no, most performers don't have a clue. Many only exist on a consumer level because of the pre-explained default way most get started in the business.

They never evolve to the professional level in this context. Yet they believe otherwise.

Is this a swipe or dig to consumer-level performers, no not at all and not intended in any way. It also isn't a slam toward magicians, although the thinking is quite common among magicians. But it is a reality that exists and is typically only a problem with consumer-level entertainers.

The fact that it is only offered or discussed by a very few, is most pros will not take the time or have the patience to explain this and assist others. This is why it is so frustrating when some of do, that it is not recognized, appreciated and even realized. As I've said before this creates very limited perspectives. This is also why all advice and educational materials are not the same in any way. Most only go into consumer markets or worse yet falsely mislead performers to believe we all approach and operate the same on the same level. This is literally setting most up for complete failure. This is not operating from a position of complete honesty. It would be nearly impossible to succeed. This is why courses on say being a restaurant magician is only limiting to a very small segment of a consumer market. Most of these guys that claim they work professional markets do not, they work company events on a consumer level. Such then, everything they claim to teach, is limiting and often ineffective to someone who has even slightly different interests.

This is exactly why I have created my materials and am selective as to who I let have access to them, because I have yet to see a single person, course or program that gets into this properly from the industry perspective - period.

Again, this is why this is so exciting that Walter has brought this to the fore as I and one or two others have before. This is not run of the mill information. I get many students that want to know the holy grail or secret sauce. They quickly learn it doesn't exist BUT this would be the closest thing to that.
Dannydoyle
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The thing that is frustrating is that some think if it is not in their experience it does not exist. This is part of why not all experience is relevant.

Then they take that lack of understanding and apply it and rather than LEARN something they just shout down those who do know. Then blame others for ego issues or for being mean or any other number of crazy claims simply because THEY don't understand.

The worst thing is they then pass that lack of understanding on to others based on "I have the right to my opinion". Never backing off, never learning, just pushing an agenda of wanting to be heard and taken seriously.

I am fairly well implanted Business to Business. BUT that is where the sales take place. The end user is consumer. So it is a strange amalgam of the two that is not so common.

But the fact is that there are 2 different ways to operate! One I worry about the relationships with people. In the next email it is more "product" driven. In our case shows. I bounce back and forth between the two all day. And make NO mistake it is a HUGE difference. I work for some of the biggest corporations on the planet. No doubt the business card is not really used in many instances for that.

It is not easy to want to learn as we get older. It is just so easy to think we don't have to because X has been working. It is a trap.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Wow, you ask a simply question and you get lectured on your lack of experience and everything else in the book.
Are all the ‘professionals’ in the know like this? Oh never mind, I already know that answer.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Mindpro
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First, I wasn't referring to you other than the first point. Secondly, I wasn't lecturing but rather explaining the point. Seems you missed it or twisted it to be something other than intended. Out of all of that it's sad if that's all you got from it. Kinda proves my point I guess.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Oh never mind, I already know that answer.

Tom


This is the heart of your problem.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Donald said he had never heard that phrase used, and then I said I haven’t either.
I was only trying to ask a simply question and find a simply answer.

Doesn’t seem to be a simply answer here oh. But that's ok.
Not words I would want to use anyway.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Mindpro
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It is very simple as both Walter and I have explained. It's your accepting and perhaps understanding of the answers being offered you are not seeming to get.
Dannydoyle
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The point is that there is a link I gave you that you can read. Simply enough for you?

If you can't keep up that is a you problem.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, that link had nothing to do with performing magic.
Had I sent someone there, it would be, "the entertainment business is different."

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Dannydoyle
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You asked the difference on B2B and consumer markets.

You don't perform magic so it should be prefect for you.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Reading back over this thread and it’s no big deal but I do want to correct the not having a manager thing. Somewhere back there Danny said most don’t use a manager. And this could be hurtful to many here wanting to learn. To completely rule out the idea of having a manager is not a good idea at all.

Many of the skilled magicians of yesteryear never made it and died broke simply because they weren’t good with the business details. Same today, most magicians know very little about running a successful business. They NEED someone not with magic experience, but with business experience to guide them along the way. This is why I recommend not putting all your eggs in one basket by only seeking advice from other magicians. Following the crowd only puts you behind them. Never be afraid to go outside your comfort zone and learn from normal people, especially if you wanting to do business with other businesses or plan on working the trade shows. Many highly skilled magicians have no people skills off stage, I won’t call names here but to put it mildly some are know it all jerks and can’t control it out in the real world.

And yes Eddie Tullock did indeed have a manager! His name was Bob Snowdell. 90 percent of Eddie's work came through Bob.

Just wanted to throw that thought in before this topic disappeared.


Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
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