The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » If you want to work corporate... (24 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
RobertSmith
View Profile
Veteran user
331 Posts

Profile of RobertSmith
Quote:
On May 14, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
In the professional markets world there are industry-specific resources, networks and tools that are almost always utilized for conducting such businesses, and no social media is not one of them. Rarely would any professionals seek anything beyond these resources. They have been created specifically for these people, their industries and these purposes.

That is why social media is likely to never penetrate such markets because in order to do so they would have to overpower these industry resources. It is very unlikely to do that and I think FB execs understand this. They are a SOCIAL network, that is their platform and what hey do best. I would think they have little interest in penetrating established professional industry resources.

I think the entertainer interested in such markets would have time better spent learning about these industry resources and networks and trying to put their efforts into them more than social media.


They're already more cost effective than those industry resources. I'll take a highly targeted Facebook ad over an over-priced banner ad on any industry-specific website without hesitation.
TomBoleware
View Profile
Inner circle
Hattiesburg, Ms
2687 Posts

Profile of TomBoleware
Bill Gates was on facebook this morning. He often encourages others to use facebook. I swiped the post below that he made Wednesday. He posted a picture of him and Warren Buffet sitting together with a red nose on.Smile

“This year, our foundation will match up to $1 million in donations for Red Nose Day to help ensure kids are safe, healthy, educated, and empowered. Participate with your friends by setting up your own Facebook fundraiser for Red Nose Day USA or donate directly to Red Nose Day USA. Participate with your friends by setting up your own Facebook fundraiser for Red Nose Day USA or donate directly to Red Nose Day USA.”

Not saying it will ever happen, it won’t, but if I were scheduled to perform in front of Bill Gates or any other big name CEO the first place I would head to do my homework on them would be Facebook. Same thing if I were intending to reach out to them in some other way.

Also worth noting CEO’s can and do often explore facebook without you ever knowing it. And let us not forget that the one that does the actual hiring is usually someone the CEO appointed to do that.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
www.tomboleware.com
WDavis
View Profile
Inner circle
1273 Posts

Profile of WDavis
Quote:
On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Based on your analogy, I know you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to utilizing digital marketing. A better analogy would be the guy in town square speaking directly to the people who have interest in his product. But as you said, you've never deployed a single ad in the space, so you wouldn't know this.


your revision doesn't alter anything Robert. If you go to a town square and people are yelling a message/selling a product. Those that stop and listen are interested, but you have no control over who specifically gets to hear ur message. And yes I understand you can do targeted ads that gives you some control over certain attributes, but that doesn't mean you are certain they really hear your message.

Quote:
Your last sentence explains your entire position. "YOU" find more value from other channels. Social media is a waste of time "for YOU." And that's fine. But to dismiss it outright just shows ignorance of the abilities these platforms have.
Robert I'm not dismissing it outright, they have a purpose and value, but like you said, I find their value relatively low when compared to other channels of communication in a b2b market for professional services. See I believe social media platforms are supports to branding, but only after a strong brand is established. Prior to that, social media efforts reduce or have minimal impact to credibility. Furthermore, most people are not professionals and don't have the branding theming or consistency of image to convey across social media and inadvertently undermine branding efforts.

Quote:
Just to spell it out for you, of the last $200,000 or so in revenue my company has generated, a bit over $50k occurred specifically due to these platforms you call "a waste of time."
your revenue has no context is the $200k lifetime earnings, yearly, quarterly, monthly, etc. without time duration there is no true gauge of impact of the channel performance. Additionally, you haven't answered what the market you are selling in. How can it be compared to professional services. Are these entertainment revenue from booked corporate gigs generated from a Facebook ad or some other professional service. If not I fail to see how it is relevant.

Quote:
That's real. You may not believe it because you still believe Facebook is nothing more than vanity and cat videos and therefore a waste of time. That's fine.

Doesn't actually matter one way or the other to me. I just wanted to add a different perspective to this discussion for future readers. Hopefully they won't dismiss the value of these platforms so easily.


Robert, I am not dismissing the value of the platform. I disagree with you on the value in a b2b market for professional services, specifically for entertainers. Tell us what your company does as it relates to the entertainment industry. Specifically, who do they help? What do the help with? How do they do it? Prove me wrong about social media for b2b beyond social media companies selling business social media services.
WDavis
View Profile
Inner circle
1273 Posts

Profile of WDavis
Quote:
On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:

They're already more cost effective than those industry resources. I'll take a highly targeted Facebook ad over an over-priced banner ad on any industry-specific website without hesitation.


Cost effectiveness is dependent on Profits generated. But to your point about better options, better to be quoted/interviewed in the journal/website then any paid advert.
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1960 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Quote:
On May 14, 2017, WDavis
your revenue has no context is the $200k lifetime earnings, yearly, quarterly, monthly, etc. without time duration there is no true gauge of impact of the channel performance. Additionally, you haven't answered what the market you are selling in. How can it be compared to professional services. Are these entertainment revenue from booked corporate gigs generated from a Facebook ad or some other professional service. If not I fail to see how it is relevant.


I think it is also important to consider how long one has been in a particular market to consider ROI on any strategy.
WDavis
View Profile
Inner circle
1273 Posts

Profile of WDavis
Charlie,
Great point.
I would refine your statement to say how long one has been deploying the strategy in a particular market.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20027 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
I would also add that we need to know how much PROFIT it generated.

I don't generally ask about this but when someone wants to throw out money to credential an opinion it is worth knowing what that number represents.

Over what period of tint is that? When did it start to generate money? What OTHER platforms are being used and how can you specifically trace it to that? How much money and time was spent to generate that and what other opportunity was lost while pursuing that strategy?

And finally how much of that is kept as profit? If you generate 50 grand and 20% is profit (A fairly standard business model.) then you have made 10 grand. How much time did it take to generate 10 grand?

These are context questions and if you want to brag about numbers they should be answered in order to provide context. Otherwise the numbers are meaningless. These are numbers that should be at the fingertips of business owners of any stripe. You don't have to answer them, I am just saying that numbers with no context are meaningless.

People throw around numbers all the time. I just wish to see context for those numbers is all.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
9764 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Quote:
On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
They're already more cost effective than those industry resources. I'll take a highly targeted Facebook ad over an over-priced banner ad on any industry-specific website without hesitation.



There you go again taking about something you don't know anything about. Nowhere did I ever say anything about banner ads or "overpriced banner ads" - nowhere. This is something you manufactured on your own. What I'm talking about (professional industry networks, tools and trade resources) has absolutely nothing to do with banner ads or the such. Sorry.
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
9764 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Why on earth would a professional market business use consumer marketing methods or strategies when they are not trying to reach the consumer markets?
RobertSmith
View Profile
Veteran user
331 Posts

Profile of RobertSmith
You know what guys, I've thought about. I really have.

I'm going to yield to you all. Clearly those of you like Danny, Mindpro, WDavis etc, who do not execute anything on Facebook or digital marketing are far more versed in the practitionership of not NOT doing digital marketing than someone who actually DOES do it.

Y'all win.

Kudos to you all.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20027 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Yes tough questions to answer I get it.

But to be clear Robert before you stomp off in a huff I have not said anything about Facebook marketing or how to do it.

ALL I did was ask you to clarify your numbers. YOU made the claims about $200,000 in revenue and $50,000 coming from Facebook. I don't dispute those numbers. I simply would like to know what they mean so I asked for context.

I have not said do other things, I have not said it didn't work, or suggested another method was better.

I think as part of an overall strategy it is great to use Facebook. But honestly looking at both sides of this each seems a little myopic in their own way. Each seems to be assigning positions to the other that they are not saying.

Robert does not like Mindpro so everything is colored by that. Tom wants to be involved even though he has no experience. Old feuds just on a new topic. How sad nobody can have a different valid opinion. Why is it that it has to be anyone who disagrees is stupid?

Everyone has such fixed positions it is strange.

This is why context matters. Give us context for your success please and it will mean more. Without it it amounts to little.

How exactly do you use it business to business? Maybe you and Walter are talking about different things.

You have such an arrogant attitude for no reason. Can't we discuss as adults and learn? I would like to know more personally. I think a DISCUSSION, as opposed to pronouncements from everyone would be cool.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RobertSmith
View Profile
Veteran user
331 Posts

Profile of RobertSmith
Quote:
On May 14, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yes tough questions to answer I get it.

But to be clear Robert before you stomp off in a huff I have not said anything about Facebook marketing or how to do it.

ALL I did was ask you to clarify your numbers. YOU made the claims about $200,000 in revenue and $50,000 coming from Facebook. I don't dispute those numbers. I simply would like to know what they mean so I asked for context.

I have not said do other things, I have not said it didn't work, or suggested another method was better.

I think as part of an overall strategy it is great to use Facebook. But honestly looking at both sides of this each seems a little myopic in their own way. Each seems to be assigning positions to the other that they are not saying.

Robert does not like Mindpro so everything is colored by that. Tom wants to be involved even though he has no experience. Old feuds just on a new topic. How sad nobody can have a different valid opinion. Why is it that it has to be anyone who disagrees is stupid?

Everyone has such fixed positions it is strange.

This is why context matters. Give us context for your success please and it will mean more. Without it it amounts to little.

How exactly do you use it business to business? Maybe you and Walter are talking about different things.

You have such an arrogant attitude for no reason. Can't we discuss as adults and learn? I would like to know more personally. I think a DISCUSSION, as opposed to pronouncements from everyone would be cool.



"Can't we discuss as adults and learn?"

Did you actually just ask that? You? Really?

Your gas-lighting is unbelievable. Delete your account.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20027 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
So you are saying you can't put things in correct and can't discuss others positions.

Why all the anger when all that was asked was fire s clarification? I did not post angry at you in the least.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
252life
View Profile
Inner circle
Ninth Circle, Hades
1933 Posts

Profile of 252life
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I too have never heard of the term ‘consumer market’ used the way you and Danny use it here.
Maybe you could show us someplace else that it is used that way. Any links?

Tom



No. I'm not in the business of looking up links to have to prove information to others. I teach, train and educate, not convince. I also can teach one that you put on your sock before your shoe, but again, I don't have any links to provide to prove the facts.

Using electronics for example, let's say the VCR that was a staple for two decades. There were consumer VCRs that were used for home use, and professional VCRs that were used in television, media outlets and professional video production services. Then (to complicate matters even worse) there was a Prosumer line by Panasonic, JVC, Sony and several others. Not directly related, but a similar example on a more general level.

It has been quite common knowledge in the professional entertainment industry for decades. I would say I first learned of it from Steve Allen and Phyllis Diller in probably the late 70s or early 80s.

This is another reason for many misconceptions among performers in pricing. For example, using magicians, some will hear that "Mr. Magic" gets $10,000 for a 45 minute corporate event. Yet "Mr. Magic Café Magician" only gets $550 for a "corporate event." Then Mr. Magic Café Magician comes on the forum to proclaim "I don't believe Mr. Magic gets anywhere near $10,000 for a booking. Impossible. Implying he is a liar, and internet phoney and so on. In reality Mr. Magic does get 10K a show in the real corporate market. And no, there is no way Mr. Magic Café Magician could ever do so working a Christmas Party for the local T-mobile store. They are comparing watermelons and kumquats. Two entirely different things. The professional Mr. Magic working the professional market realizes this (and feels no need to prove or defend himself as it is truly his reality). Yet Mr. Magic Café Magician is not working the corporate market, in actuality he is working a consumer market bookings that only pays several hundred dollars. Yet Mr. Magic Café Magician will never learn or possibly understand this.

Two entirely different things. Yet the only one that doesn't realize it is the one asking for proof, and flinging untruths because of his lack of knowledge and understanding. Also likely due to his lack of professionalism.

This premise exists on almost every element of entertainment business - marketing, selling, exhibiting, promoting, production, bookings, clients, and literally every element. Even feedback, perception and testimonials. There are consumer testimonials and professional testimonials. Consumer credits and professional credits. Consumer promotional materials and videos, and professional promo and videos. The list goes on an on. And no, most performers don't have a clue. Many only exist on a consumer level because of the pre-explained default way most get started in the business.

They never evolve to the professional level in this context. Yet they believe otherwise.

Is this a swipe or dig to consumer-level performers, no not at all and not intended in any way. It also isn't a slam toward magicians, although the thinking is quite common among magicians. But it is a reality that exists and is typically only a problem with consumer-level entertainers.

The fact that it is only offered or discussed by a very few, is most pros will not take the time or have the patience to explain this and assist others. This is why it is so frustrating when some of do, that it is not recognized, appreciated and even realized. As I've said before this creates very limited perspectives. This is also why all advice and educational materials are not the same in any way. Most only go into consumer markets or worse yet falsely mislead performers to believe we all approach and operate the same on the same level. This is literally setting most up for complete failure. This is not operating from a position of complete honesty. It would be nearly impossible to succeed. This is why courses on say being a restaurant magician is only limiting to a very small segment of a consumer market. Most of these guys that claim they work professional markets do not, they work company events on a consumer level. Such then, everything they claim to teach, is limiting and often ineffective to someone who has even slightly different interests.

This is exactly why I have created my materials and am selective as to who I let have access to them, because I have yet to see a single person, course or program that gets into this properly from the industry perspective - period.

Again, this is why this is so exciting that Walter has brought this to the fore as I and one or two others have before. This is not run of the mill information. I get many students that want to know the holy grail or secret sauce. They quickly learn it doesn't exist BUT this would be the closest thing to that.



....I'm only this far (pg 2) of this thread. But just wanted to say thanks! This is quality reading, and sincerely appreciated.
I have to admit, I'm feeling a tad embarrassed.
It's subtle, like just finding out you've been mispronouncing a word for years.
Maybe a common mistake, but if you're OCD like me...ugh, annoying.
So, back on topic-
I've often said, "I do corporate events". Up until a few moments ago, I believed I did lol.
I doubt I'll be changing how I describe my work for businesses though.
Hopefully, my references would show no attempt at duplicity.

Anyway, often I see a post on the Café, it deserves a reply, and I forget.
So, back to the discussion for me.

252LazySunday

(Hey Danny, I was just down in Boulder City and did the helicopter gunship thing. It was great! Offer stands, you'll love it. Hope you're well)
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
WDavis
View Profile
Inner circle
1273 Posts

Profile of WDavis
252life thanks for posting. OCD can be a difficult challenge, if you don't mind I would love to see a new thread on how it's affected both positively and negatively your business as an entertainer.

Walter
252life
View Profile
Inner circle
Ninth Circle, Hades
1933 Posts

Profile of 252life
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
The thing that is frustrating is that some think if it is not in their experience it does not exist. This is part of why not all experience is relevant.

Then they take that lack of understanding and apply it and rather than LEARN something they just shout down those who do know. Then blame others for ego issues or for being mean or any other number of crazy claims simply because THEY don't understand.

The worst thing is they then pass that lack of understanding on to others based on "I have the right to my opinion". Never backing off, never learning, just pushing an agenda of wanting to be heard and taken seriously.

I am fairly well implanted Business to Business. BUT that is where the sales take place. The end user is consumer. So it is a strange amalgam of the two that is not so common.

But the fact is that there are 2 different ways to operate! One I worry about the relationships with people. In the next email it is more "product" driven. In our case shows. I bounce back and forth between the two all day. And make NO mistake it is a HUGE difference. I work for some of the biggest corporations on the planet. No doubt the business card is not really used in many instances for that.

It is not easy to want to learn as we get older. It is just so easy to think we don't have to because X has been working. It is a trap.



Great points.
Much appreciated.
Danny, I just think you come off like a bull in a china shop at times lol.
But! You've got a TON of info at your fingertips from all I've seen.
Obvious that it's all been learned in real time/real life, not theory.
I personally learn a lot from some of your input, and say thanks.
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20027 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
I AM a bull in a China shop. No doubt about it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
252life
View Profile
Inner circle
Ninth Circle, Hades
1933 Posts

Profile of 252life
This thread has been an education.

My experiencing with advertising, was a dark comedy.
For approx 5 years I owned an online game.
I tried everything from the sucker bets ("mass email plans"), small scale guerrilla marketing, targeted banner ads, Facebook, etc., etc. Ironically, the smallest, most obscure little Australian site, was the most successful. Not by a little either. And (!) those people almost always ended up being the whales.
If there's a point here, I guess it's this. Test out different approaches, and maybe you'll get a surprise.
If this applies to our form of entertainment, I personally don't know.
But, that's why I'm loving this thread. Trying to learn.
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
252life
View Profile
Inner circle
Ninth Circle, Hades
1933 Posts

Profile of 252life
I am quickly realizing I have not maximized my potential, sheeeesh
Feeling very inefficient at the moment.
(See?! I could have just said, "atm". I'm *** wasteful!)

I'm someone that probably needs an agent.
Or, a babysitter.

252Rainman
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
9764 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
252life, I agree there has been a wealth of great information offered here in even just the last week. There are two ways members here will respond to it - those that will take the time and put in the effort to learn, understand and try to comprehend the information that has been offered to them, and those who will fight it, deny it, argue against it, challenge it and not ever get a true understanding of the content being offered, the opinions vs. the facts and a host of other blockades that will prevent them from benefiting the as as other will. They will instead fight against the messenger or posters. That is fine their prerogative.

As far as Robert he believes he knows about social media. He is then trying to take his belief and claimed experience (square peg) and trying to make it universally applicable to any situation (consumer or professional) whether it is true or not (round hole). It is no different than a magician that loves a trick and insists that it be in all of his show regardless if a show for 3 year olds, a corporate events for adults or a senior home. He feels he can make it work in any situation because he feel he likes it and knows best. Others can tell him otherwise and that it is not the best and even offer reasons or examples why it is not so, he doesn't want to hear it.

It really is a matter of people being blinded by their own ignorance for many.

Self-realization is truly the greatest benefit from this information and really from all of the content presented here in Tricky Business. It becomes really easy to see how one is towards their business and likely performance by the way they view things and respond. It is no different how the checkers brothers take away so much from the information offered in Tricky Business and a handful of others learn, accept and benefit nothing. They prevent themselves from the same luxury.

I'm glad to see (and hear from) so many this last week about the eye-opening information that all comes from the single element of understanding consumer vs. professional markets.

I will take a moment to loudly say and clarify this since Tom specifically stated this and Donald and another person here have eluded to it - I (and recently Walter, Danny and others) have delved deeper into the issue of consumer vs. professional markets as I feel it is an underlying reasons for many performers lack of success, confusion and lack of understanding of so many elements and things related to both their performance and their business operations. For many that truly understand this premise it can be the missing piece you've needed.

Understand I (and I am sure the others too) in NO WAY have ever presented this topic to claim, present or project that a consumer level performer is a lower level performer or "belittled" performer (as Tom has stated). Even in Donald's reply he mentions something to the affect of "well I guess I am just a consumer market performer" as if to imply that it is something bad, low-lever or somehow inadequate. This was ever said, ever. This topic was only introduced to offer reasons and awareness of the issue and how it likely applies to almost every person here's entertainment performance and business (except Tom).

Some are getting hung up on a tone that doesn't or shouldn't exist. We all start on a consumer market level. Many performers remain there their entire performing career and can become very successful. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG OR INSUFFICIENT IN BEING A CONSUMER MARKET PERFORMER!

Only understand that they operate differently than professional market performers in many ways and approaches.

I work with far more consumer level performers than anything else. Some are content to always stay at this level, others are aware of limitations and boundaries that exist and strive to get to the professional market level. It is an individual choice as performers we all have to make.

I am only concerned that everyone has all of the facts, proper insight and information to make a proper and educated decision that best suits themselves.

I see much more coming ahead in great topics and I think this premise and understanding it completely will help members here get the most out of such entertainment business-related topics and positioning.

From what I have been hearing from many this week, it has been a real eye-opener to many who have been re-energized to think about this and like 252life, reevaluate their current position and operations.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » If you want to work corporate... (24 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.27 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL