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Dannydoyle
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I had an operation on my knee I an reevaluating.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On May 14, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I had an operation on my knee I an reevaluating.


So does that means you won't be able to work the professional market anymore? Smile

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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252life
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Personally, I'm grateful for these insights.
Same as when I used to go to the SBA, and speak with retired business owners, etc.
you don't know what you don't know. So, I'm all ears. So long as the source is reliable.
Here, we have valuable info being shared, specific to our odd niche of a profession.
Furthermore, to have anyone take the time to share paragraphs of detailed thoughts, is commendable.
And appreciated.

Disclaimer...I still reserve the right to start unnecessary arguments at anytime, and for no reason.
It's an early morning, coffee withdrawal issue you see Smile

252Jittery
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
252life
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Hope the knees recovering well Danny
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
Dannydoyle
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Sorry that was the joke part. Why should Toms COMPLETE lack of understanding be the only thing we laugh at?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Tim Friday
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Quote:
On Apr 12, 2017, WDavis wrote:
Throw your business card away.

Let me explain why.
1. Your card has your picture on it
2. It lists all the services you do.
3. You treat your card like a sales tool

These are signs you are amateur or a consumer market performer. I have a growing suspicion many magicians copied real estate agents on their cards.

Think about this for a moment before you jump down my throat. Business buyers are more sophisticated and if they have your card it's because you were referred or you have a relationship with them. B2b entertainment services is relationship driven, not consumer volume driven. And if you want to work in that market you need to look like you belong.
You don't know how many times I got business cards from people trying to push me their service or product that ended up in the trash can. A bad business card is toxic for b2b success, it can really cheapen an image.

So in the end get a card that you expect a professional would give you, because they are expecting you to be a professional too.

Don't even get me started on why blogs, twitter, Facebook, social media is a waste of time too.


WDavis, my reply to this is that 1) it is a hasty generalization 2) it is disrespectful to sales professionals, specially to real estate professionals

The key question with business cards is: What gets results? Every person who you ask about your business card will have a different opinion about it, it will never be perfect for every person. So instead commit to something you like and go forward with it. Does it get consistent results for you? If so you have a winner or you could continue to refine it or change it completely. A card with a photo on it can certainly get results, likewise a card without a photo can certainly get results.

As far as real estate agents go, I have nothing against real estate agents. Many don't do much work but many are very successful. I believe I would enjoy talking with and learning from a successful realtor and I remember in his book "The Millionaire Mind" Thomas Stanley describes a certain type of realtor who is invaluable and based on his statistics a high percentage of millionaires had a realtor like this where they sought advice.
WDavis
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Tim,

Thank you for your post. I can appreciate your disagreement so allow me to provide you some supporti to my points. I have over the years collected close to 1,000 business cards internationally from various magicians. this is a statistically significant set to support the claim of how the majority of cards are presented. Prior to leaving the banking industry I was involved in investment and corporate banking. My niche was financial institutions. I dealt with lenders and most lenders are involved with mortgages. Thru lender finance, I have met more realtors than I can count. I can safely say 95% of realtors are b2c and their business cards and magician cards are strikingly similar for the b2c markets. I believe this is the case because most magicians don't know business, so they gather business cards from various people and realtors cards are readily available as are most b2c cards. This leads magicians to falsely believe that is how a business card is supposed to be for any market. In the b2b market it is not. Less is more because the focus is not on selling but establishing a relationship between the parties. This difference of focus changes the purpose of the business card and how it is used. B2c uses the card as a sales tool providing a laundry list of services. A b2b business card is less cluttered listing company name logo and contact information (name email and phone numbers).

This difference is because many corporatations will scan cards into a comapby rolodex. OCR software doesn't work well with flashy cluttered cards. Additionally, there is a sense of business card etiquette and aesthetic that is lost in the b2c markets. To highlight my point get a corporate bankers business card, a corporate lawyers, a corporate cpa (not the guy who does your taxes) and a corporate realtors card. Then compare them to their b2c equivalent. It is obvious the markets and norms are different.
I don't know where you are geographically but if you can compare a CBRE business card to your local realtor who wants to sell you a house you will see my point about realtors and magicians.

I disagree with your premise that the key question is "what gets results?". This statement clearly highlights a b2c mindset. The business card is NOt a sales tool in Business to business sales. Nor is it a marketing tool. Those are b2c tactics. In b2b if you use those tactics then you lack experience or training in b2b sales. This isn't a question about results. Yes you may get a sale, I may find $5000 on the street but I don't want to bank my livelihood in those odds.

To your final point, the invaluable millionaire realtor - His economic value is his network not him.
Tim Friday
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WDavis,

You continue to make assumptions. I guess your goal is to position yourself as a guru here on the Café so you can sell your products, and you will most likely succeed because there are many impressionable people here. However you have only showed up recently here on the Café, you use a partial name so we have no idea who you are or your credibility. So far you have positioned yourself as a loudmouth on the Café and like Eugene Burger said, "online the loudmouth suddenly has just as much authority as Dai Vernon."

You are basing this only on one industry, however there are many industries. There are many "blue collar" industries that will pay just as much as the industries you mention.

As far as "what gets results?" you are influenced by this question because in your opinion "what gets results" is the type of business card that you believe is the best card.

In regards to the millionaires realtor that was a reference from a specific book and you would need to read that chapter from the book, then it would be more appropriate for us to have a discussion about it.
Tim Friday
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The key point I was trying to make is, this topic is a very minor point in being successful as a professional magician, regardless of the market. There are many things much more important than the type of business card.

It's like saying you must have your resume in a specific format and font for it to work, but many formats and fonts on a resume will get the desired result.

I know one magician off the top of my head who is in one of the most competitive markets and he works circles around most everyone else, and at a higher rate. He has worked for top name corporations that you would immediately recognize. And he has his photo on his business card.

With or without a photo on a business card, you can still be successful.

Finally this is my problem with the Café, I don't want to argue with anyone, and I am not an argumentative person, but it brings out the worst in me. I will most likely take a break from the Café once again, I would rather work on my business.
Dannydoyle
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So it is the fault of The Magic Café' that you brought up a month old thread in a combative fashion? Got it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Not sure how you can say that when your opening sentence in reopening a month old post is "WDavis, my reply to this is that 1) it is a hasty generalization 2) it is disrespectful to sales professionals, specially to real estate professionals. That was more argument-starting than anything in this thread. Making such accusations will likely only lead responses in one direction. The same happened in your previous posts. (just pointing it out, not you you realize this or not or if this is intentional).

It would be great to see you provide some context to your posts as Walter has done to make your point more understandable. I also think you post from a position of feeling you already know, rather than approaching open-minded from a perspective of "this is interesting, maybe I could learn something." I see this a lot here from newer performing guys (less than 10 years) that could really learn much more if they weren't so argumentative and defensive. Once you realize much of the information here can actually help you in working on your own business, the information, value and perception here becomes something entirely different on a greater level.

So much of this comes from a poor foundational level. The foudational level you build your business, beliefs and operations on must be reality-based not based on just your persona limited experience, beliefs and preferences.
Mindpro
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Guess we were posting the same immediate thoughts at the same time. Great minds think alike!
cafecheckers
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Walter- thanks for taking the time to provide the context in which you offer your opinion regarding business cards. Interestingly, no one who disagreed with your point was able to share anything about a business card that refuted your position. Instead, they share their opinion (with no context ) and try to say that it doesn't matter what is on the card or what the intended purpose of the card is.

Perhaps there is a counter argument to be made (it sure does not seem so), but Tim and Tom are not representing the "other side" very well at all. For some reason they are taking the advice as a personal attack on those of us who operate in b2c markets. I have no idea why, as it has been explained here numerous times that it is not the case.
WDavis
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Quote:
On Jun 16, 2017, Tim Friday wrote:
WDavis,

You continue to make assumptions. I guess your goal is to position yourself as a guru here on the Café so you can sell your products, and you will most likely succeed because there are many impressionable people here. However you have only showed up recently here on the Café, you use a partial name so we have no idea who you are or your credibility. So far you have positioned yourself as a loudmouth on the Café and like Eugene Burger said, "online the loudmouth suddenly has just as much authority as Dai Vernon."

You are basing this only on one industry, however there are many industries. There are many "blue collar" industries that will pay just as much as the industries you mention.

As far as "what gets results?" you are influenced by this question because in your opinion "what gets results" is the type of business card that you believe is the best card.

In regards to the millionaires realtor that was a reference from a specific book and you would need to read that chapter from the book, then it would be more appropriate for us to have a discussion about it.


Tim,

Please point out where I am making assumptions and how those assumptions are wrong.

I'm also flattered that you believe my content posted would position me as a guru. If you had channel checked you would see I've actually pulled all of my products from the market in March. I have been working putting together products for corporate magicians And mentalists. But I also don't "sell" I educate, network, and provide white papers to demonstrate. ive not planned on pushing my wares thru the Café with respect to business.

I've not shown up here recently, I've been a member of the Café for a while, only recently I've posted in tricky. This is due to the deficiency in content and understanding of corporate and commercial markets. I started posting here to fill that void.

Furthermore, I don't hide behind a partial name. My name is Walter Davis, I sometimes sign and many times don't. It's not out of hiding but rather my mood and what device I'm typing on. Lately I've been using my iPhone so typos have increased. I've had many private phone/skype conversations with many people on the Café regarding mentalist and business. If people want to ask me a question I will answer them and if I have the time I even offer to call them. I would even speak with you over the phone if you wanted to talk over my points. I'm not here to fight with people nor am I here to pontificate, I'm here to give back to others and pay it forward.

With respect to one industry, that is not correct, I've been exposed to more Industries and had to become technically competent than most here on the Café do to the nature of my background. When you lend to lenders you have to know them and their customers, plus their respective industries. I've helped companies grow from a home based business to being sold to a Fortune 500. I replied to one industry because I referenced one that you called me out on: realty.

The comment about what gets results is the key point, and my point is what you missed. My point is the card you use if moving from retail/consumer channels and moving towards middle market and corporate will hurt you. These companies for the most part are more sophisticated and image/perception is a larger factor. Because of this fact, I'm stressing the card itself hurts more then helps as it is used by most magicians. This is because they fail to establish the level of relationship necessary to effectively compete in This market. My point is the emphasis should be on establishing the relationship. Doing this returns the business card back to its original purpose a calling card with contact information. These people already know you, trust you, and only will use your card to contact you or give to someone else for a specific referral. If your presold then your card doesn't need to sell you. If you've established a relationship your card doesn't need to sell you.

Finally, with the "millionaire" book, I agree. What is the isbn or title/author I read a book a week and would love to add it to my list. After I finish I'd love to have that discussion with you.

For everyone else speaking up about me, thank you for replying I'm flattered and humbled by your comments and defense.
While we may all come from different places, it's communication and A willingness to discuss and work thru our differences of opinions with others that makes us all better businessmen and women.

Thank you everyone,
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Jun 16, 2017, Cafécheckers wrote:
Walter- thanks for taking the time to provide the context in which you offer your opinion regarding business cards. Interestingly, no one who disagreed with your point was able to share anything about a business card that refuted your position. Instead, they share their opinion (with no context ) and try to say that it doesn't matter what is on the card or what the intended purpose of the card is.

Perhaps there is a counter argument to be made (it sure does not seem so), but Tim and Tom are not representing the "other side" very well at all. For some reason they are taking the advice as a personal attack on those of us who operate in b2c markets. I have no idea why, as it has been explained here numerous times that it is not the case.



So true. I think it is because T&T aren't totally understanding or accepting the Consumer Vs. Professional markets premise or it would quite easy to see the differences. Tom is obviously in denial that it even exists, and Tim seems to want to twist or apply what he does know to be across the board insight, which it isn't. Even with Walter's patience, context and examples it back up his points, it is still being opposed, mostly due to a lack of understanding.

You said "For some reason they are taking the advice as a personal attack on those of us who operate in b2c markets. I have no idea why, as it has been explained here numerous times that it is not the case." I do not understand this as well. Others here have understood this fine. Not sure why the attacks related to this topic and this premise.

Most realtor business cards are created and intended for potential clients and those with listings. Thus, the cards are created for this target in mind. In B2b sales and business, the card should be created for THAT target and The professional market in mind, which as Walter said would be entirely different and without the photo and "about me" tone that is often a part of B2c (consumer) approaches.

The point is many performers just make their business cards, promotional materials, websites, videos, etc. based on what they have seen others do (hence the common "what do you think of my (business card, website, etc. threads here.) People respond with their PERSONAL OPINIONS, not actually what is best for the person inquiring as it is impossible for them to know and be able to do so. (It also very probable that the OP asking the question doesn't understand or know this information as well). To answer such questions one would need to know many things, including their specific targets, markets and level of operation. One size does not fit all.

One has to have knowledge and experience of both to properly offer the requested insight. Many here (not you specifically Cafécheckers) are struggling to get this, and therefore simply offer their personal opinion based on their own position and often limited knowledge of the greater picture. So in order to properly answer such question you need the proper information and a more complete understanding of the topic being discussed or offered.

While on tour over the last few months I have looked over the last 100 pages of posts here in Tricky Business and (the majority) almost every topic and thread is affected by the Consumer vs. Professional market understanding. It would make getting the benefits of the threads and the information being shared so much more useful and applicable to many by just having the understanding of this one single basic premise.
charliecheckers
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On Jun 16, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
The point is many performers just make their business cards, promotional materials, websites, videos, etc. based on what they have seen others do (hence the common "what do you think of my (business card, website, etc. threads here.) People respond with their PERSONAL OPINIONS, not actually what is best for the person inquiring as it is impossible for them to know and be able to do so. (It also very probable that the OP asking the question doesn't understand or know this information as well). To answer such questions one would need to know many things, including their specific targets, markets and level of operation. One size does not fit all.

One has to have knowledge and experience of both to properly offer the requested insight. Many here (not you specifically Cafécheckers) are struggling to get this, and therefore simply offer their personal opinion based on their own position and often limited knowledge of the greater picture. So in order to properly answer such question you need the proper information and a more complete understanding of the topic being discussed or offered.


Great points shared here. Ones we cannot be reminded about enough.
TomBoleware
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For the readers and I don’t think it has been mentioned yet, but there are a few good books out there on working the corporate market. I believe Jim Snack covers it in his books. Also Danny Orleans has a book on working the corporate market. And let’s not forget that Lou Serrano and a couple more here offer some excellent material on building a magic business.

But if you’re really serious about interacting and working with professional business people I suggest studying some of the personal development books/videos. In the end a good personality along with a positive outlook will take you much farther than than your tricks will.

Jim Rohn, a very successful business man and motivational speaker once said, “Work hard at your job and you can make a living. Work hard on yourself and you can make a fortune.” I have to agree with him. When you are lucky enough to be self employed the only thing holding you back is ‘you’

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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You are recommending books you have not read?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Tim Friday
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WDavis,
Here is why I felt you were making assumptions -
I felt it is a hasty generalization to assume that performers get business card advice from realtors. If anything I would bet magicians get business card advice from other magicians or a small business marketing course along the lines of Piranha Marketing by Joe Polish or a similar type course. Also it came across to me as a generalized looking down the nose at realtors in general as a profession. I'm not a realtor and never have been and have no desire to be one but I'm certain there are many fantastic realtors who I could learn from.

Also I believe there are many more things at play in a performers success than just simply the business card.

I would be interested in getting a collection of the top magicians business cards today. I would bet you will see a variety of styles of business cards, some with photos some without. I believe there are indicators of success that take a priority over the business card.

The book I mentioned was "The Millionaire Mind" by Thomas J Stanley and here is a link to it on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Mind-......ire+mind

Finally I recently met someone in a corporate role for a major musical instrument company, top acts have used the products from this company for many years. It is a company that could easily hire a magician for an event or trade show at top dollar with no hesitation, if they wanted a magician.
Incidentally her photo is on her business card. It is the corporate layout that I'm sure everyone at this company has the similar style card with their photo.
RobertSmith
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Quote:
On May 14, 2017, Mindpro wrote:

As far as Robert he believes he knows about social media. He is then trying to take his belief and claimed experience (square peg) and trying to make it universally applicable to any situation (consumer or professional) whether it is true or not (round hole). It is no different than a magician that loves a trick and insists that it be in all of his show regardless if a show for 3 year olds, a corporate events for adults or a senior home. He feels he can make it work in any situation because he feel he likes it and knows best. Others can tell him otherwise and that it is not the best and even offer reasons or examples why it is not so, he doesn't want to hear it.

It really is a matter of people being blinded by their own ignorance for many.

Self-realization is truly the greatest benefit from this information and really from all of the content presented here in Tricky Business. It becomes really easy to see how one is towards their business and likely performance by the way they view things and respond. It is no different how the checkers brothers take away so much from the information offered in Tricky Business and a handful of others learn, accept and benefit nothing. They prevent themselves from the same luxury.
.


Wow. Throwing some hefty shade there.

The problem is the people telling me otherwise are people that have never executed in the space. While I know that I have.

To borrow Danny's Michael Jordan analogy, I'm the one who has executed and you're the short fat guy trying to dunk.
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