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Dannydoyle
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On May 8, 2017, Decomposed wrote:
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On May 8, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
So were you actually on the trade show floor performing? Was it actually a trade show (not many trade shows take place in 5 star hotels)? Was there a deposit received?

Now in retrospect, was there anything your felt you could have done differently?


You know MP it was the weirdest tradeshow I ever worked. I normally dislike trade shows but this was more of a mixer and it appeared lots of companies had booked rooms also and had entertainers. So the woman said tradeshow but that was across the street at the convention center. This was more of a mixer....people coming in and out with the traditional name tags. This was at night. But to see the hotel rooms all booked, a stilt walker when I left etc was really neat. Also star war characters walking around the halls.

And no, no deposit. But company is legit, woman had to have received approval because it was many weeks in the making. When she hired me, I sent an email and contract to her and also W9. Woman does work there, company email etc etc. Now that was then. Several phone calls, hard copy of contract invoice mailed to company, spoke with guy who called me back etc..

Differently, no not really. Especially with a major company. Private gig, certainly I have to be aware and getting scammed there is a real possibility. Only once though a woman wanted to meet and pay me the next day. I ended that discussion right there. But with companies, its never been this lack of communication.

In general lack of communication is not unusual.

The reason is that they have all those departments and policy in place. So they don't feel as if they are unresponsive. They are just doing business how they do business.

I do think it was a but of a shortfall on both of you not to know and agree to payment terms. Even if it is standard in the industry she should have read your contract that said payment day of and talked about it with you. You certainly should have clarified terms with her more clearly.

It is only communication.

Ultimately you must want to be paid. Makes sense to me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Decomposed
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Actually Danny the communication was right on right up to and at the gig. It was clearly understood she would bring the check to the performance. When I got there, she told me some story that the check had not been cut yet etc etc. It was sincere and just an oversight and I definitely wanted a good experience and I told her okay, surely I would be paid the following week. Well now, the last email from her a week or go more or less said that the payment would be released in May, but it was suppose to be released before gig. Then several emails sent with no response now. She was just a go between. Had many of these over the years but none turned out like this one. Just knowing what is going on is not too much to ask since I am the one suffering. Of course Im thankful I don't need to this to pay Mafioso... Smile
Dannydoyle
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Wanting to be paid? How dare you! Wanting to know why you are not? The heck you say! What sort of person wants these things?

Seems like pretty reasonable position to me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Man you need to go ahead and call my old yard man to go get your money. LOL (Yes that is a joke)

Like I said if it is one time in ten years, you are lucky. Wish I had every dollar I lost in business. It’s just a part of doing business oh.

Still you want your money and have nothing to lose by staying in contact with them. Bug em, Bug em, Bug’em, That’s what a collection agent would do. Most people will pay when they see that is the only way to stop the phone from ringing. You can be nice and still be persistence at the same time.

I use to have a stack of collection letter templates that I used over the years. I’m sure you can find some free ones on line. Most can easily be reworded to fit any business, may be good for future use.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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Mindpro
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Quote:
On May 8, 2017, the Sponge wrote:
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On May 8, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Now in retrospect, was there anything your felt you could have done differently?


Come on now, you don't need this info to offer the advice.
Can't wait until the advice!



I'm not sure what this means or implies, but anyways...

Decompomsed, to answer your original question, yes, it has happened to others including myself back in the 80's when I first began working the trade show market. Trade shows are a huge professional market, although today while still huge, not as much as during the boom in the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. It is the main reason I moved to Las Vegas. Not to have a show on the strip (never my interest or intention), but rather to live and work in the trade show capital of the world.

As I have stated before, this is likely a Consumer vs. Professional market issue with both you and the client. Not a big deal once understood and accepted. I will share a story...

I had something similar happen to me in the late 80's. I now realize the true situation, which is why I asked if you would have done everything differently. I felt there was some nifo and details being held back from you in this thread which now has confirmed my suspicions.

When this first happened to me and I identified this (which is by the way much differently to something similar happening in the school market. It looks similar or the same but for different reasons most often) I actually created a trade show business program (for the trade show industry - corporations, not for the talent, entertainers or speakers) that was adopted and eventually became a software business program, I did this because of the opposing operational processes between the talent and the booking representative, team, etc,

So YES, now that I know the rest of the details (as I said earlier) I believe you will receive payment probably withing the next two weeks. Don't worry about collections, attorney or "bug 'em, bug 'em as Tom says and certainly no weapons, it is simply working its way through their process and payment will arrive. If you don't receive it by the end of this month (May) then I would start to look at it differently (possibly) but at this point I wouldnlt be concerned.

I can tell you exactly what happened. You approached this as you have most of all of your bookings for the last ten years, primarily as a consumer market performer. While I do not understand why you didn't request a deposit (which could have prevented or at least identified this problem/situation much earlier and allowed it to begin to be dealt with before the event rather than after), you really have to understand the trade show process for this all to make sense here. I won't explain it all here but as an general overview most trade shows are produced by a team, committee or department within a company. These "teams" typically handle all facets of trade show participation including sponsorship, exhibit booth, ads, programs, design, staffing, construction of their display, shipping, purchasing, electrical, hospitality, travel, lodging, meals, networking events, banquets and receptions, sales associates, sales training, campaign design creation implementation, spouse events, dinners, lunches, breakfasts, educational sessions, crowd gatherers, brand ambassadors, demonstrators or samplers, literature distributors, models, and of course speakers, presenters, attractions and entertainers (and really so much more). These teams range from at the smallest of 4-5 people to typically up to 120 people, each with their own specific area within a single trade show operation.

They may be working on 10-12 different and individual trade shows per year nationally or world wide. Each trade show team begins with a budget usually managed by a Comptroller or Senior Event Manager (occasionally called a Trade Show Manager or Director). ALL elements must go though and be approved by him or her (including in this case you as an entertainer). Almost everything is paid based on their process (regardless of what your contract says) which usually entails after the event having sometimes up to 30 days for all of the team members to submit "Final Invoicing and Reports" for everything related to them. The reason this doesn't even begin until after the event is there are many last minute, on-premise and unforeseen costs that can and almost always do arise just before, at during or in post-production of the event. So this Final Invoicing may happen the week after the event if the team is sharp, tight and quite together and on top of things, or it may take several week, perhaps up to 30 days just for every final element to be submitted for payment. Then they usually operate on a 30-45 day pay basis after that, which is currently exactly in line with the timeframe you are experiencing for your event.

The person (lady) that contacted you and made arrangements for your appearance, did so, and then had to submit for approval from a supervisor, manger or financial rep. She likely had to create and submit some type of formal proposal or submission for consideration/recommendation or detail outlining you, the event and your purpose. That is why it originally probably took time to get approved and progress to the booking stage. You then simply submitted your consumer level contract, which she or someone from the finance team would likely requested you complete a W-9 and usually ask for an invoice in additon to your contract. If they didn't ask for it, your booking lady may have had to create an in-house one in order for your payment to properly be proceed within their system.

This is the key. It all is done within their standard system or process, regardless of what your contract, paperwork or conversation has stated. You rep only dealt with research recruiting and confirming your services, after that it was handed off to others in different areas of their process (likely financial/accounting) to continue through their process. If you would have had a contract more appropriate for a professional market client (and such process/system) their system or process wouldn't seem so foreign to you or it would be more acceptable and understandable. I believe, knowing the professional trade show market process, your payment is in the processing phase and will be completed within the nest 2-3 weeks. It is quite normal once you understand their process and system.

Also once you understand their process and system you can know how to proper invoice them in a way that works within their system, yet still to the terms of your agreement. For example each trade show usually has a Corporate AmEx to be used for advances, which if you understand and know how, can be used to include talent deposits, IF you know how to set it up this way and be able to utilize such a position. When I do trade shows, I get the deposit upon confirmation, and my balance is all paid in full 10 days before the first day of the event. The only possible thing that may be a post-event factor is travel, expenses, reimbusements, etc. and even them=n, if you understand their operational process and system, this can be covered in advance too.

The reason you feel a runaround is the girl that originally booked you was actually done with her role in the process once she confirmed your services, Your transaction was then handed off to their next department/person in their process. That person probably began by creating your vendor file (along with requesting your W-9, invoice, etc.). Once they were done copies of your file (pertaining to your appearance) were then distributed to other departments including Project Manager, the Floor Manager, payroll, and so on. So after the event when you called the rep that booked you you began asking questions about your check which she couldn't possibly know or handle because it is not her department. That is why she likely forwarded your message to other team members and with their help have been trying to get to the point it is currently at in their process.

Unfortunately, like most corporate employees, they only know about their role in the process. So by you calling you are trying to find out where this is at the current time and what is the expectation for the completion of their process, is something your rep likely can not truly answer. Of course the intitial people you were dealing with, who by now have long did their job and moved on, are being asked to be brought back into this on your behalf to try to discover its current status.

I get your concern, but don't let the advice offered by some here that have no experience with the market, the level of operation and such processes try to provide you information and advice on something they haven't a clue about.

There are things you could have done to prevent this, but you were likely completely unaware of.

I will say I do feel you were a bit mislead from the lady you were dealing with. What you performed was NOT trade show, but rather a fringe event of the convention. This is like performers that work a company Christmas Party and falsely believe they are working the corporate market. What you worked was a hospitality or networking event, which are quite popular as part of conventions or conferences, and for anyone that truly understands the trade show market, it is here that much of the business and deals are created, cultivated and executed. So while it is part of the convention or conference festivities, it is not actually part of the trade show itself.

It is imporant for performers to know about these markets and their role within a greater picture such as in this example. My next set of questions (which you don't have to answer as I likely know they answers) is what pricing did you charge? - consumer event pricing or professional event pricing? This is likely how or why you got the booking (as a local) and is likely playing another role in what you are seeing as a delay in being paid issue.

I think you should just wait it out as I feel payment will arrive. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. In their eyes, nothing is wrong and you are just being a pushy performer pestering them for your pay. Now I agree, the process should have been better explained to you, but I am guessing the lower level team member that booked you may not even know all of this herself. When the financial person is contacted and being told "his contract said he was to be paid the night of the event" they're probably (I almost guarantee it) thinking, "well that's not how we do things around here" and just are proceeding with their normal business as usual process.

As entertainers (or speakers) we must understand the systems, operations, processes and expectations of those we are working with. It is part of being a professional, Now understand I am not saying you have done anything wrong, but just showing once again, their are different levels of performers, different levels of business, different levels of makrets, and different levels and means of operations. As entertainment business professionals, it is up to us to learn this to properly and best serve out markets and clients. We also need to be able to identify when something is beyound our level or position, and how to learn to progress to these advance levels if this is what we choose to serve.

Keep us posted.
Dannydoyle
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Could you please provide context for your post and give specific examples?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
cafecheckers
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On May 9, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Could you please provide context for your post and give specific examples?

This is a textbook response, given the conversation. I really need to further develop such skills.
TomBoleware
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As helpful as it may be for some in the future, it has nothing to do with this show that is over.

This has nothing to do with them being a big company or that he did a show outside of his league. Saying they are a huge company and they have a right to change his contract or delay payment without his approval is a joke. It shouldn’t have to work its way through the payment process when it is already past due.

He did the right thing from the beginning, he set the rules, they agreed, and now they need to pay up. He is owed an apologue by the company, and he deserves his money.

Anybody disagree?

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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Dannydoyle
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Nobody said he isn't owed his money.

The only thing those of us who actually do this are saying is it might be a procedure. We have provided context to what we are offering, we work regularly and currently in those markets and offered thoughts and experience based on that.

If it is in their system nobody has done anything wrong. No apology will be forthcoming. It is what it is. The only one who owes an apology is you for such horrible advice.

This is where you give VERY BAD advice that costs people money. This is why never having done these things and still choosing to bloviate about them is bad. If you had any experience as a professional in this area it would help. All you offer is stories of gardeners with guns that simply have nothing to do with the problem at hand.

Please stop. It does not help anyone.

The way companies work when paying this sort of thing is simply different then you can seem to comprehend. But please do not continue to confuse others with your misunderstanding.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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On May 9, 2017, Cafécheckers wrote
This is a textbook response, given the conversation. I really need to further develop such skills.


It's simply conversation but it is based on both understanding and experience. So many here speak about something the truly do not understand (an opinion is not the same as an understanding) or have experience with.

No further skills to develop, simply allow yourself to learn, understand and gain experience (real experience and understanding the the right sources).

Success comes from experience. Limited experience only brings limited success. Allow yourself to learn, understand and gain experience (real experience and understanding) from the the right sources.
TomBoleware
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Danny,

It’s ok for a company to redo your contract?

That’s the WRONG advice that seems to be coming out here.

But hey, that’s just me, maybe you do allow companies to run over you, I don’t

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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WDavis
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I disagree, he didn't do the right thing.

The right thing was to either decline the gig, or to Amend the contract with signatures for enforceability.

The rules changed once he agreed to then worked without pay. By doing so, he essentially voided that section of his contract if not all of it. If he doesn't allow for a joint and severible clause. he essentially gave them permission to run him thru their accounting mill.

Walter
TomBoleware
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Decline the gig? Oh my God I have heard it all now.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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Mindpro
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On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
As helpful as it may be for some in the future, it has nothing to do with this show that is over.

This has nothing to do with them being a big company or that he did a show outside of his league. Saying they are a huge company and they have a right to change his contract or delay payment without his approval is a joke. It shouldn’t have to work its way through the payment process when it is already past due.

He did the right thing from the beginning, he set the rules, they agreed, and now they need to pay up. He is owed an apologue by the company, and he deserves his money.

Anybody disagree?

Tom



Yes, completely because all of things you stated were never said. Every single one of the except he is owed his pay.

I never said anywhere that the OP did a show outside of his league - never said.

No one ever said anything about the size of the company or it being a big company - never said.

This thread (as as well as every other current thread you are posting in) contains many things never said,. Things you have taken put your own negative twist on to say or mean things never intended, Danny is right, please stop!


All he is owed by the company is his pay.

You are really are starting to believe your own BS and distorted perceptions of things never said. And once again will solely derail this thread as well - you can't help yourself. He came in her asking SPECIFICALLY to hear form those with experience IN THIS EXACT SITUATION - that is not you. Anything you offer is only perception based on how you twist reality and things that have been said. Some of us here are really trying to offer help, assistance and guidence to the OP.

IT DOES have to do with this situation regardless if the show is over. He still has to deal with them and payment is still pending.
Dannydoyle
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On May 9, 2017, WDavis wrote:
I disagree, he didn't do the right thing.

The right thing was to either decline the gig, or to Amend the contract with signatures for enforceability.

The rules changed once he agreed to then worked without pay. By doing so, he essentially voided that section of his contract if not all of it. If he doesn't allow for a joint and severible clause. he essentially gave them permission to run him thru their accounting mill.

Walter


Yes this is true. This is why understanding is so important.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Am I the only one here that understands that he had an agreement to be paid on the spot?


Tom
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WDavis
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On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Decline the gig? Oh my God I have heard it all now.

Tom


Why not? I'm a professional and my services are desirable. If this company, didn't follow our mutually accepted procedure or sign an amended contract dictating new terms, I leave. I will not let my business be ran by someone else. If I am so hard up, I can't afford to decline a gig - I have a problem. If I am psychologically so needy I can't say no to them, the client won't respect me professionally and I will end up losing.

In the end it's knowing my value and not compromising on it. I have certain hard fast rules with my value and by holding fast to them I've increased my money.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On May 9, 2017, WDavis wrote:
I disagree, he didn't do the right thing.

The right thing was to either decline the gig, or to Amend the contract with signatures for enforceability.

The rules changed once he agreed to then worked without pay. By doing so, he essentially voided that section of his contract if not all of it. If he doesn't allow for a joint and severible clause. he essentially gave them permission to run him thru their accounting mill.

Walter


I agree with you Walter. The problem is in the way the terms were setup by him originally. Asking for pay "the night of the event" is a very consumer-market approach which is so open ended as it doesn't specifically state upon arrival or setup, it could as be following the performance. At that point your position in the deal has been greatly compromised. Again, this would have been identified and come to light and likely avoided if he had requested a deposit.

So now he is dealing with an aftermath based on his compromised position and violation of his own agreement. I do think he will still be paid, but has put himself in a poor position in the interim. The rules absolutely changes because of his own actions. He essentially allowed this to happen.

So now we get to the current position. With all of that said and understood,how is it best to proceed to receive payment. Bugging them as Tom suggests is definitely not the answer. He should PROFESSIONALLY (not like a ****ed off consumer in line at customer service Walmart or the Piggly Wiggly) proceed accordingly.

How he proceeds could likely determine the outcome of this relationship, which seems to at this point be diminished to just a transaction rather that a developing relationship.
TomBoleware
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WDavis, at what point would you have declined?

At the show?

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

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TomBoleware
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Mindpro, why shouldn't he bug'em?
He doesn't owe them any respect after the way they treated him.
He won't do another show for them. He just wants his money.


And speaking of Piggly Wiggly, at one time I owned a huge part of a 32 store chain of the supermarkets.
If the company there had given someone the runaround about payment like this, yes they would receive an apology.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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