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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Sales vs. Marketing (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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TomBoleware
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Thanks Walter. I agree that relationship selling is the key to making sales. And yes by your definition my past experience in drug sales would be in a small market. But I’m not sure huge market equals professional market.

Is my definition of a professional market being made up of professionals acting in a professional way, like I described, wrong?

Maybe I am just confused but you seem to be saying professional markets can only exist in billion dollar operations?

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Dannydoyle
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Maybe you're confused?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WDavis
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Tom,

I believe your mixing terms. I've not called any market a professional market. I have called an industry professional services. I have said Selling professional services to businesses is different as we move thru the marketplace. I will now define professional services and marketplace.

Professional services is defined as any specialized intangible service that typically required specialized training or skill set. Lawyers accountants consultants engineers, professional speakers and entertainment are usually placed here from an accounting standpoint on a P&L. I use this definition to describe what we do. Because the service is intangible the sales process is also different. I will not elaborate here on this as it's out of the scope.

The marketplace consists of only two markets business and consumer. In other words, a person or an entity. The entity is typically in the business of generating some kind of return for stakeholders. Individuals are not. Now lets shift our focus to the business branch, within the business branch there are corporate at the top followed by commercial, then middle market, at the bottom is retail/small business. This stratification is done by revenue, ebitda, or market share. As market share is shrinking due to m&a corporate and commercial have converged and are pretty synonymous. Now where most get mixed up is the small business/retail markets. Many erroneously believe they work corporate because they did a show for a retail store branch of a major cellular company or some variant there of. Also, many think the approach for retail/small business is the same as if dealing with a middle market+ company. They are not the retail/small business mindset is the same as the consumer mindset, this is due to the skinny org structure, usually one owner/dedication maker, and the closely tied economic nature of the owner to the business.

I hope this clarifies it for you.
55Hudson
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Most of the discussion here seems to equate marketing to advertising, which it is not.

Marketing is much more than a slogan, logo, Facebook advertising, and vehicle wrap.

Classically, marketing comprises of the four P's
- Price
- Product (or service)
- Promotion (advertising)
- Place (channel or how you will reach your target market)

It doesn't matter what industry you are in, this is definitional. With regards to marketing, and marketing science, the entertainment industry is no different than any other industry.

It is well worth your time to study up on marketing - there are many excellent books on the market that can provide the necessary basics.

Hudson
Dannydoyle
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The fact that colleges offer marketing and advertising as separate degrees and here they are used as interchangeable terms is quite telling.

Throw in sales and it gets very confusing. The bad part is when guys who don't understand try to force that ignorance on others as opposed to learning.

Marketing is a LOT of things we don't get to discuss because of the usual suspects.

These distinctions are not about ego in the least. It is how almost every other business in the world operates.

Mr. Hudson you are correct. While there are nuances to every market, there are rock solid principles that cross all industries. Why some choose to stay in ignorance is hard to imagine. Why they want to force it on others is mind boggling.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Jun 16, 2017, WDavis wrote:
Tom,

I believe your mixing terms. I've not called any market a professional market.



Thanks Walter.


To the others, I am not talking about advertising or marketing. I haven’t said a word about those terms.

I am talking about the ‘professional’ and ‘consumer’ market that is often referred to on here.

I gave my definition of a professional market and I'm sticking with it.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Dannydoyle
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Yes why bother to learn? Takes o much time.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Teach me Danny. Tell us all why my definition of a professional market is wrong.
Or as Mindpro said, it is absolutely not even close.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Jun 17, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I gave my definition of a professional market and I'm sticking with it.

Tom


So when you can't understand something, just make you your own ***t? Yeah, that's helpful and beneficial to many here. There have been threads and pages explaining this Tom. You aren't getting it. That is fine, but stop trying to post then about something you admittedly do not know or understand. Several of us have offered this information to you specifically, repeatedly, I'd say the problem with this is you. Not a big deal, everyone can't understand everything. It may make better sense to you if you were an entertainer, owned an entertainment business and were faced with these issues and were dealing in these realities, instead of just relating such content to things you've done years ago and now twisting with your own made up definitions.

Really what is the purpose or benefit to the post, forum and others here by you doing this?
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 17, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Teach me Danny. Tell us all why my definition of a professional market is wrong.
Or as Mindpro said, it is absolutely not even close.

Tom


You have been told MANY times and have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt you have no intention of learning. Or are incapable. Neither one is helpful to others.

You either intentionally miss things or are just not capable of grasping them. My guess is it started with a lack of ability to understand and instead of just learning you became obstructive to others.

But even if you are incapable of learning, which for whatever reason seems to be true, why good others back? You have not been successful. No big deal. You don't have to hamper the progress of others.

Yes I know you have owned 372 imaginary companies and your imaginary friends all know everything. So skip the stories for us this time ok?

Tim nobody is saying don't believe what you want. All I think is that when you don't understand something, which is z staggering amount of times, don't stop others grin learning, don't shove your bad understanding down people's throats and don't stop others from learning. It does not help anyone to have you just run your mouth.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, Mindpro

It doesn’t take pages and pages to explain what a ‘professional market’ is, it’s clear that is only a smoke cloud to boost your own ego. That’s a fact.

I gave a simply definition of what a professional market could be, but if you insist that it is some strange dark secret that only a few can understand, that’s ok. Just keep on living in that small world.



Walter said it well “The marketplace consists of only two markets, business and consumer.”

And I will add, it’s not hard to understand the difference in the two. A little common sense will do it.

Thanks Walter for clearing all this up.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Dannydoyle
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You are unreal. You just are not capable of understanding. It is mind boggling.

I have summed it up for you many times in many threads.

If you buy a smoke detector for your house so it doesn't burn down that is a consumer sale. If you buy one so your business doesn't burn down that is a business to business sale.

Selling to a business is different than selling to a consumer. Simple enough.

It is obvious what your are tyring to do and all you are doing is making yourself look silly like you do EVERY THREAD.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, what is the professional market?

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Dannydoyle
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Show me where I used that term.

But regardless it would NOT include you because your are not a professional magician and never have been.

So STOP ruinung an entire section of this forum with your bs.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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I agree, Danny, Walter (patiently and excessively) and myself have more than tried to explain this in detail. It IS something that exists in the business world and has for generations, especially the entertainment business world regardless if you accept it or not, and no it wasn't created, imagined or manufactured by Walter, Danny or myself.

In all of the pages of text, posts and threads on this topic over the just the past several months and through all of the the hand-holding explanations we have offered, these are just some of the incorrect, wrong, mispercieved, misunderstood and whack comments and contribution you have offered on this topic:


You seem to be saying that it depends on who is sitting in the audience whether it is a consumer or 'professional' show.

Aren’t you just renaming what has always been called a 'corporate' show to 'professional' show.

Anyway, I will only burden you with one simple question, ISN’T THE AUDIENCE ALWAYS THE END USER, THE CONSUMER?

If so, then ALL shows would be performed to the consumer market.

“It’s a market made up of many professionals” I can buy that.
Hey keep'em coming, I’m getting it. Smile

Maybe my problem is I can’t see any magician/entertainers here being viewed by a huge company as being anything other than an ‘individual’ that is doing business.

All this b2b talk is not as important as it is being made out to be. It’s mixing apples and oranges.

Perhaps using the term ‘Commercial' instead of "Professional' market would be less offensive to us little low level consumer people.

Just thought since all markets have professionals within them, perhaps ‘Commercial ‘market would be less offensive than ‘professional’ market.

Unstopping the toilets is sometimes listed as a professional service.

Seriously, it is not offensive to me at all but the way it is being used here is very offensive to others and that is a fact.

“All performers START at a consumer market level” Does that imply that the consumer market is for BEGINNERS. Sounds like it.

I have no idea where you get this from so please STOP YOUR CONSTANT LIES.

Defining what a business IS would also help in clearing up what the b2b stands for. A magician simply doing a magic show for a business is NOT a b2b transaction that can be called a professional service.

Is entertainment alone classified as a service? If so then in my mind ALL corporate shows would be b2b.

Just another thought to throw out there, but do magicians even market directly to the really huge corps? Don’t most of those companies just go through a booking agency? And don’t the magicians capable of doing these type shows have managers that do the marketing work for them? You would think that would be the case.

As I’ve said before, experience means very little nowadays, it’s more about being qualified. A corporation had much
rather have a younger good looking qualified person.

I too have never heard of the term ‘consumer market’ used the way you and Danny use it here.

In the business world the words consumer market is used to describe buyers who purchase goods and services for consumption.

It certainly sounds belittling when used like it is sometimes used here


I know many sales professionals that call on both individuals and businesses with very few changes. It’s no big deal.

It’s simply ANY place where you have professionals acting in a professional way. It’s nothing more or nothing less.

Maybe I am just confused but you seem to be saying professional markets can only exist in billion dollar operations?



Literally pages and pages of not understanding. Is it resistance or a comprehension thing? I don't know but the result is the same - you don't understand or accept it, and then start to make up your own definitions and beliefs and worse yet then pass them on to others here seriously trying to learn. It's continual relentless, yet not beneficial in any way.

This is one of the most important premises of entertainment business to understand! Without you will likely spend thousands of dollars and many hours of time, effort and energy only to get minimal and often absolutely no results, and be made to look a fool within your own industry/market. After having recently gone over the past 100 pages of threads here in Tricky Busiess, I would seriously say it is probably the single most significant business topic offered here and crucial to any performers' success.

To belittle this with your own skewed OPINIONS and manufactured, self-serving pseudo-definitions is absolutely crazy. We get you don't get it. No problem, your loss. Many have tried to help you to understand this. You still aren't getting it. Maybe its the "you can't teach an old now new tricks" thing, or maybe something else. But let's keep some proper perspective here.

Many of us have invested many hours into our contributions here on this topic, and to you specifically Tom in an effort of understanding, so please let it have the significance it deserves.

Now before start with the whole victim thing and claim you are being "attacked" which is not true - just stating your own words here, I will say I agree with one single thing you said on this topic, even though only partially related which is this:


"Many of the skilled magicians of yesteryear never made it and died broke simply because they weren’t good with the business details. Same today, most magicians know very little about running a successful business. They NEED someone not with magic experience, but with business experience to guide them along the way. This is why I recommend not putting all your eggs in one basket by only seeking advice from other magicians. Following the crowd only puts you behind them."

I would only add they need someone with entertainment business experience, not magic or general business experience, as this can make all the difference in the world in direct, useful, industry-specific, applicable skills and information. It is what also separates you from the pack of generalists and followers you have described.
TomBoleware
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Danny. You don’t know because there is no such thing, huh?

Mindpro uses that term a lot so maybe he can tell us.

Mindpro, what is the professional market?

(and please spare us all the rambling and use a short definition)


Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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Who said I didn't know?
Danny Doyle
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 17, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny. You don’t know because there is no such thing, huh?

Mindpro uses that term a lot so maybe he can tell us.

Mindpro, what is the professional market?

(and please spare us all the rambling and use a short definition)


Tom


Your misunderstandings have been very well documented Tom. Stop the bs OK? Please.

I have just given you a very good example of the difference. You refuse to listen. PLEASE STOP. You can not be this thick.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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No you did NOT give me an example.

You gave an example, using a smoke detector, of a business and consumer market.

Are you saying a business market is the same as a professional market?

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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I'm saying stop. Please stop.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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