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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Sales vs. Marketing (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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55Hudson
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Sales versus Marketing is such an important topic. It is disappointing to see yet another thread in Tricky Business where is is so difficult to weed through the BS and pick out the gold nuggets.

Another hour wasted. I will again take a hiatus from this section ...

Hudson
Dannydoyle
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It is a HUGE important topic.

I was just saying to Mindpro on the phone today that I used to think sales was the most important part of what we do. But as I got older, as I got more experience it turns out for what I do PERSONALLY that market position does most of the sales for me!

As you said marketing is about a lot of things.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Exactly! That is why for several years now this issue of Consumer vs. Professional markets is so important, as it dictates what and how to approach marketing and sales. The elementary topics of "do you send email or snail mail?" or the longtime regular topic of "post cards or letters?" and so many other topics (videos, websites, promo materials, etc.) are really irrelevant until the understanding, determination and position of Consumer vs. Professional markets is first in place. They are absolutely impossible questions to address and answer without this vital information.

I've been hoping for several years now that this topic would then trigger much greater and more in-depth threads about business operations, of which of course sales and marketing are a part of.

So many people here ask such general questions or surface questions that could become so much more once this is achieved.

When people say things to me like "how did that guy double the amount of bookings working with you in just six months or one year..." or "how do I start making four or five figure bookings?" or "how can I get more bookings" or "how do I go from part-time to full-time pro?" and other such questions, the answers all lie in first starting with the markets and level questions. That and honesty about their current level and positioning which seems so difficult for some.

It is so frustrating that just when topics are about to get good and start to go deeper we have to deal with this nonsense and derailments. I personally know that I do not put such time and effort into these posts and topics and willing to share so much here to only have to deal with this nonsense.

I wish that the many PMs I get about these topics started or currently going in Tricky Business would be posted in the forum instead of PMs. I would say about 75% of these PMs could be helping others as well offering even greater purpose, but I hear it weekly that they don't want to be part of this nonsense by a select member or two.

Sales and marketing is second only to having a proper business structure, model and business operational system in place once this Consumer vs. Professional market element is in place. Better understanding these areas could literally be worth tens of thousands of dollars (or more) to many performers here. Yet at the same time this misinformation and self-made content and false information could easily cost performers here thousands of dollars, years of wasted time and energy, frustration and in some cases as we've seen giving up completely on their dreams and aspirations.

As Danny Said "No please stop, not again" followed by 55Hudson point about this being true disappointment. Both are true and I couldn't agree more.
TomBoleware
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I agree that marketing is very important, but make no mistake about it, without sales you can shut the doors. Businesses, any business, cannot operate very long without the sales coming in.

Many magicians are misled by the thought that a great show will sell itself and that is all you need. But the ole saying build a better mousetrap and people will beat a path to your door is just not true. Unless they can find you and a little coaching to come see you, you may find yourself just sitting there waiting.

I also agree the bs needs to stop and differing opinions should be allowed. I have no problem with being wrong if you simply say I disagree, state you opinion, and move on, but I am not going to sit here and be insulted and belittled over and over without fighting back. It shouldn’t be that hard to overlook posts that you don’t agree with. Let the reader decide on their own which one they like or dislike. The back and forth is uncalled for and nobody wants to listen to it. I've said that many times here.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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You say it and KEEP CAUSING THE PROBLEM!

You have a huge problem with being told you are wrong and sorry but too bad. Maybe if you didn't have an opinion on absolutely EVERYTHING it would happen less.

And no I don't think letting the reader decide is good when it will cost them money. Why? Just to let you bloviate about things you never did or worse yet FAILED at? Nope not going to do it any more.

You say things like without sales you can close the doors. Wow. Nobody knew that. Is the sky blue also?

Want to know what is worse than just waiting for them to best a path to your door? Doing most of what you advocate. Endorsing EVERY sales guru no matter what. Buying endless courses and ideas on marketing and sales. Wasting money on nonsense before being ready and so on. Pretending everyone is equal just because they have an opinion is very hurtful to guys.

So yes Tom stopping the bs is easy. Just quit typing. You have nothing to add but the fingers still continue to furiously pound away. Just stop is all you have to do.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, just a thought but why do you think all the readers here are looking to you to protect them? That’s not saying much for the reader. It’s not like they are young children, even if you do see them as that.

Can you even imagine doing business a different way than you do it? Why do you just assume that everyone here wants to be like you? I know many on here that would laugh at that thought. Why do you think your way is the ONLY way?

It’s pretty clear to me that you don’t want any other marketing people here, besides mindpro, you hate em with a passion.

One example of how things could be better: I love reading Walter’s post and I agree with just about everything he says, some I don’t and I say so, but not once has he been rude about a disagreement. Problem is, me and him or anyone else for that matter, can never talk without you jumping in shouting ‘shut up’ or ‘you’re no professional’ or mindpro jumping in blaming everybody for not understanding the consumer vs professional market.

I know you always want the last word, but for once why can’t you listen to your own advice and just shut up, things would be so much better. Anyway I know you ready to get the last word in. So go ahead and be the master attacker that you have been accused of being many times. I will remain silent because I am a better man that you Danny. From now on I will spare the reader the back and forth with you. I will just post my opinion while ignoring all your smart comments. Like I've said before most of my posts is beating you off my back anyway, so maybe if I stop that and let you ramble on by yourself, things will be better. We're see.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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The old "I'm a better man than you last word ploy" again?

Do I have to do what Mindpro did and show you how many times you have tried that AND FAILED?

Your posts are spent defending your bs. If you didn't post so much bs you wouldn't have to defend it would you?

Now stop making up things I say and think. Hearing what you think is bad enough.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Yeah, I must say I too am getting tired of Tom always playing the victim here. Claiming he is attacked when it is clearly his posts and perspectives that always trigger any responses he feels are attacks. Then he attacks, especially Danny & myself because once again we are the only ones that call him out on his bs.

So many things you take out of context or come to a completely wrong opinion. No one is trying to get anyone to do things one way. That's what you read into it. In reality is just the opposite to learn the facts so they can ultimately decide form a proper perspective the way they want to do things. Same in the Coaching thread that you still didn't understand. My coaching clients and students don't come to me to learn how I do things or to do things my way, they come to learn how the facts and insight into how the industry operates, specifics and uniquenesses and industry strategies, tools resources and implementations, then adapt them to themselves accordingly. When you operate from the industry perspective there aren't many ways to do things. That's one of the reasons why members come here to learn such information and perspectives.

As far as "or mindpro jumping in blaming everybody for not understanding the consumer vs professional market" - again you are incorrect. Others seem to get this fine, it's just you not "everybody." I have yet to hear one single other person say they don't understand it or would like further understanding. Just you. You do make so many things up that don't exist or were never said. As I've said before it seems to be a comprehension thing with you and a unique ability not to want to see things as intended - consistently.

It all comes down to facts vs. opinions. People don't come here to want opinions and general knowledge from a non-industry point of view (we have other forums for that on the Café for personal thoughts and opinions), they want industry specific facts, insight and knowledge. These are not the same. Tom provides his thoughts, opinions and beliefs, quite often on things he doesn't understand especially as it pertains to being a professional performer and/or operating a entertainment business in today's current marketplace. This is not an opinion, but a fact as Danny likes to point out regularly. So from this point on information offered is not equal. And no, all opinions aren't equal as there are informed, knowledgeable and experienced opinions from a professional perspective, and inexperienced, unknowledgeable thoughts and opinions about how something might be from one that truly doesn't know.

I also understand he (Danny) points it out regularly because it happens regularly. I know for a fact the reason he does this is to prevent this from continuing, getting out of hand, ruining another good thread and bringing down the forum. He's trying to stop it and nip it in the bud before it turns to the same derailed, opinion-based, uneducated perspective content.

It is impossible to have a true productive conversation. It would be like an adult with knowledge and experience trying to discuss something with an inexperienced, uneducated child. You can pretend its on the same level but it simply isn't. It might be a cute discussion for a minute to the parent, but it would never in a million years be accepted as real or factual. They would never take it seriously. They also don't need to be challenged by the child as it is truly pointless (not to mention problematic). The same happens here. As long as inexperience and opinions from those not currently working in our industry continue, no depth or progress will come from any topics or threads.

Many take this seriously. When a person is not doing this as others are, they can't possibly take or accept the level of intent or seriousness as the others. Unless an OP specifically asks for just opinions, such posts are really off-topic and inapplicable.

There are many posts and topics here that I choose not to participate in because of lack of knowledge, limited experience or because all I would add would be opinion. Sure I have opinions but again, that is not why people come to this section. Any professional is quickly able to separate the two.

Then there comes the issue of operating from a personal perspective (right or wrong, experienced or not) vs. operating from an industry perspective. I think this often comes into play with many magicians as we see here. This is a business forum for our industry - performing and entertainment business operations.

I have received messages just this week from two members that have either left or will not post (refuse) because of this opinion-based, non-current experience in this area reason. I would love for these two and several others from the last two weeks to openly allow me to repost their messages (even in part) to show the severity of how they and others feel it is impacting this forum. I'd be happy to do so, but only with each of your permissions.

This is not a forum where people come just to shoot the ***t with fellow members. As Hundson55 said, this is an important topic that deserves the opportunity to progress. Sales and marketing is specific and much different for entertainment businesses, we have opportunities and approaches not available to most other businesses, this needs to be allowed to be explored without derailment, confusion, having to wade through and separate fact from opinion, the knowledgeable from the inexperienced or wannabes, the current working operators from the no longer active armchair know-it-alls. They don't want to hear from the pop-in bashers with attitudes and agendas, no they want to hear from those currently doing it and those with longtime experience in our specific industry and profession.
TomBoleware
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Mindpro, I guess I need to stop responding to you too. But first let me set the record straight with you.

Yes you are right, it is ONLY you and Danny that I have problems with here. You never wonder why that is? I have many friends here and I treat all of them with respect because they respect me. That’s how things work here.

NO this is not the place for facts only; ALL OPINIONS are welcome here, even from those that we know nothing about LIKE YOURSELF. You come on here running your mouth while hiding behind a fake name demanding that people see you as the expert here, and you trying to tell me that I shouldn’t post here. That’s got to be a joke.

Why don’t you invite some of those so called students of yours on here to back up some of your claims? You spout off about how great you are without providing one fact to back it up, HOW DARE YOU demand that everyone post only facts here. I personally don’t think you have any students. I think you’re just an internet magician with nothing else to do but to post here. You and Danny are on here 24 hours a day trying to guard the place while all the real professionals are out working. Yeah, you're just an 'internet magician' that's all you are.

Go over on facebook and ask the many magicians why they don’t post here anymore, it is certainly not because of me.

Ok, enough said, I am marking you off my list too. Carry on without me responding to all your remarks. You can do the same.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Mindpro
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We all know that won't happen. It is seriously a shame that you can see the points being made here. Two of the people that consistently offer some of the greatest information, advice and insights here YOU seem to have a problem with. Of course you do because none of this pertains to you. This is just a social hangout for you. Others are here to learn and to impact their business.

We aren't here for your acceptance or approval. You'd be the last person to be concerned about because you are not an entertainer or entertainment business owner but are the loudest puveyor of nonsense, incorrectness and opinions. There are forums here for solely for opinions, perhaps you would be better served to utilize them.

Many others here feel the same but are too nice to say anything as not to offend you. They don't want to get the wrath of your posts, these attacks and judgemental perceptions. You should thank them for not saying what they truly feel. We call it like it is and we become the target of you spewing.

It is particularly frustrating to me because I have specifically taken the time and spent so much time trying to help you to understand, but you just seem to continuously prefer to stick to your own perceptions rather than the reality of what if being offered. If you start with false beliefs and accept incorrect info, then everything based upon or from them also become false beliefs. If you can't tell after years of posts and participation here who are true working professionals speaking from experience, and still have your skewed opinion of me, that shows your lack of comprehension. Do you think someone would spend so much time trying to help others by only making up inapplicable nonsense?

You're the one that keeps referring to me as an "expert." You created that, I certainly never said that. Again your false perception or self-generated falsity. I was asked to participate here because of my many areas of professional entertainemnt industry experience. Even the Café has never referred to me an the "expert."

You think I don't have students, you think I am not a performer, you think I don't own agencies? All of these again are YOUR beliefs that you somehow have convinced yourself to be real. They are not. Even when students of mine, fellow performers and those I have booked and represented have come here stating their success stories with me, you still don't want to see it. This is why most choose not to because you create such a hostile environment. It is is only a you thing. And again, no one here has anything to prove to you, your not even on the business!!! It's crazy!

Yes, please take me off you "your list" and don't respond to my threads and posts, they are not for you in the first place. And I will stop investing my personal time in effort in trying to assist you to understand things you are incapable of understanding or wanting to understand. Good deal. I only feel sorry for Walter who now will get the brunt of your bs, opinions and misperceptions. I'm sure he's already just as frustrated as some of us are too, but too nice or new here to say anything. Good luck Tom. So good, if you're not going to respond to Danny's posts, and now mine, the problem should go away.

Btw, if you want to make real money by Thursday...do a gig on Wednesday!
Dannydoyle
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Not even 2 hours that time . Tom you are a self parody.

Did I seriously just read the words "HOW DATE YOU demand everyone only post facts here"? Seriously you wrote that Tom? And it didn't occur to you how... (I don't have a word that won't get me banned)... it was?

You have really shown who you are to everyone. Thank you.

And by the at his student has posted, as have those who bought his book. Just sayin.

Why don't you have your imaginary friends do the same?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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