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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Tricky business Ľ Ľ Sales vs. Marketing (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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WDavis
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This came up indirectly on my thread about when to turn down a gig. So in response to a "perceived" need by dutchmagician, I'm posting here.

First the context. I'm a firm believer, regardless of the market, professional services do not sell- they market. Marketing is not sales. Sales for professional services are the outcome of effective marketing. Marketing is the appropriate branding and promotion of name recognition. With proper marketing, it no longer becomes a question of "I need a good entertainer for my event" but rather "I need dutchmagician for my event.

Dutch magician mentioned Cold calling. While it has its place in some businesses, consider what image does it convey? For many in my area it's some kid calling at dinner to sell solar panels and windows! Not professional image is it. So what is more effective - proper marketing pull generation. This is not SEO or even a website, this is 3rd party sources, referrals, media articles, videos etc. your website doesn't sell you, instead it is a credibility source confirming their opinion after they found out about u!
DutchMagicMan
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Hello again WDavis! Thank you for this topic, I find myself learning a lot out of it.

To all others, I'm sorry if I come over a bit outdated or plain dumb. I still have a lot to learn when it comes down to the business side of magic. I have a diploma in acting - I studied and mostly did acting from 2009 till 2013. I've got into magic 5 years ago and started performing 3 years ago. I never really got into the business side of things until this year january when I started performing a kids/family show.

I think I understand what you mean by marketing and sales. Marketing is something you can't 'do', unless what you 'do' is 'good' (gets people talking about it or see it). After the word is out, your 'sales' are a direct result of marketing done right. Marketing overlaps sales (?)

Something I recognize is that the way I did business - and still do - is probably not the best way. Cold calling certainly can give people the impression that I am the 'kid calling at dinner to sell solar panels and windows' (I like what you did there Smile). My question is pretty simple: what is the best way then? You say marketing is the appropriate branding and promotion of name recognition and that what is ideal is 3rd party sources, referrals, media articles, videos, etc. This (obviously) is truth! But how does one - or how do I - get this if his name isn't out there? If he isn't seen performing his act? If people don't know him for what he does?

I am not experienced and I am not good at doing business, so I apreciate your advice! Once more, thank you very much for the topic and the time! I really am learning a lot here!
WDavis
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On May 12, 2017, DutchMagicMan wrote:
Hello again WDavis! Thank you for this topic, I find myself learning a lot out of it.
[...] I never really got into the business side of things until this year january when I started performing a kids/family show.

Since you work kids/family shows, I will anchor my answers to fit that segment.

Quote:
I think I understand what you mean by marketing and sales. Marketing is something you can't 'do', unless what you 'do' is 'good' (gets people talking about it or see it). After the word is out, your 'sales' are a direct result of marketing done right. Marketing overlaps sales (?)
not necessarily, marketing are activities that promote brand awareness and demonstrate your value to the client. Remember the client is always asking "what's in it for me?" Your banding demonstrates the value to customers, think thru the needs of your customers, now what benefit do your bring to them. This is the immediate benefit but not the branding. The Branding comes from consistent demonstration of that value. For example, Toyota/Volvo are reliable, reliable ritz Carlton is luxury. Hope these examples illustrate branding. Sales is the activity that progresses towards the exchange of a good or service for money. Some processes in sales are more aggressive.

Quote:
Something I recognize is that the way I did business - and still do - is probably not the best way. Cold calling certainly can give people the impression that I am the 'kid calling at dinner to sell solar panels and windows' (I like what you did there Smile). My question is pretty simple: what is the best way then? You say marketing is the appropriate branding and promotion of name recognition and that what is ideal is 3rd party sources, referrals, media articles, videos, etc. This (obviously) is truth! But how does one - or how do I - get this if his name isn't out there? If he isn't seen performing his act? If people don't know him for what he does?


well first think of it this way, who do you want to know about you? If it's kids and family shows, target media outlets for those markets. I won't go into details on how to get quoted for an article or interviewed for tv, etc. but that's one method of more effective marketing of your value than cold calling. Thru this process You become known and don't have to convince others or sell yourself. They already want you for their event.

Quote:
I am not experienced and I am not good at doing business, so I apreciate your advice! Once more, thank you very much for the topic and the time! I really am learning a lot here!


If you want to be successful in business you have to have 3 attributes. Committed to make it happen, do what ever it takes for success, always questioning is it the best way to accomplish my goal/satisfy my clients needs.

Keep at it.

Walter
55Hudson
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I will relay to bits of information that may help put sales and marketing into perspective.

During my summer internship (between 1st & 2nd year of business school) a marketing professional described it this way:

"Marketing points the gun, sales pulls the trigger"

Simplistic, but does set the stage.

First day in my marketing class, the professor held up a quarter-inch drill bit and asked, "what does the consumer buy when they pick this up at the hardware store?"

Correct answer: "quarter-inch holes".

A lot to chew on there, if you reflect on it.

Recommend picking up a book on sales & marketing. Loads of good ones, just browse at local book store. Happy to provide specific recommendations, but perhaps browsing is the first step.

Hudson
Dannydoyle
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Don't ever think you are just plain dumb for asking questions and wanting to learn. We ALL had to learn. It is a process and that is not a bad thing.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
DutchMagicMan
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Thank you for the responses! I've been going through a interesting book on marketing and sales for entertainers, which has opened my eyes to a lot. So much to learn! I like how you point out 3 point, Walter! Certainly something to keep in mind.
Mindpro
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Marketing is what gets people to become aware of and want your services, Sales are what gets people to buy your services.

Unfortunately most consumer market performers tend to do PITW Marketing - they do general marketing, usually several types, toss it all out there and see what sticks - what comes in from it. They do one thing, then wait and hope for results. This is terrible and costly and usually only to little or no results.

Too often entertainers equate not having the desired amount of bookings to lack of marketing. This simply isn't true.

Perpetuating the misconception that it is marketing that they need is simply incorrect. It's setting them up for failure. It is a business operational system that is most likely the reason for a lack of bookings, especially for those that are doing marketing and getting no where.

Sooooo many entertainers are spending money on all of this new stuff, techniques and methods, yet only have a 5, 10, 15 or 20% conversion rate of actually turning these leads or inquiries into actual bookings.

Marketing is only useful and effective when someone is at the proper level to market.

Marketing Musts...

You Must First Understand The Market
Learn Specifically Who The Buyers & Decision Makers Are
How Best & Most Directly Market To Those Buyers


Marketing when done effectively has presented and positioned your services and has begun the process that gets people to identify themselves as interested in your services.

People input your marketing one of three ways - they hear it, see it or they read it.


Selling - One of the most common problems I see with performers is most canít distinctly explain their services or performance. They doní t have or havenít created a concise elevator pitch.

My question is always, if they canít do that, how are they really ready to market, and worse yet SELL?

My coaching students know my initial 7 steps to selling that for most of them has made all of the difference in the world in their efforts and results.

Here is an except from one of my books:

ďMarketing is what introduces and positions your services, gets prospects to want your services and to learn more about them and become interested, Sales are what get people to buy your services.

Many entertainers, for some reason, seem to think negatively towards Sales. This is an area that needs a mentality shift. Youíre not doing ďdirty salesĒ where you are trying to sell or push something on someone who does not need or want your services. You are not trying to talk anyone into anything (as many feel is their approach towards sales).

Not at all. Actually, just the opposite. You are:

- Offering a solution to the prospective clientsí interests and needs. They are seeking a solution

- You are also creating an opportunity for the client

In reality you are providing a needed and sought service.

Business is driven by sales. Selling is both an art and a skill, and is a crucial, necessary and vital component of any entertainment business and business operational system.Ē

This is why qualifying is such an important part of the process.
Tim Friday
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I believe the most effective marketing is derived from the selling experience. Because in the selling experience you learn the common questions and objections that come up again and again, then you can take this data to create impactful marketing.

In the corporate world the marketing department attempts to tell the sales force what to do and what to say, then the sales force goes out and does what works and gets results. The sales force will tell marketing what actually works but most of the time the folks in marketing don't listen to the sales force.
WDavis
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Tim, what you describe is true regarding the experience. But it's also mostly for a b2c sales force. B2b sales works differently, especially for professional services.
Tim Friday
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I can only speak from experience from sales in a professional setting, in very difficult to attain sales positions. It's not even usually referred to as business to business sales in the professional world, except maybe on a job posting.
Mindpro
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On Jun 16, 2017, WDavis wrote:
Tim, what you describe is also mostly for a b2c sales force. B2b sales works differently, especially for professional services.


I agree. As discussed in many threads here recently, it seems the concept of the two different levels of markets is failing to be accepted or understood by many here as if it is something just made up. B2c (consumer markets) or B2b (Professional markets) are entirely different things that operate completely differently and any business as part of its foundational elements should know, understand and establish this before attempting to conduct business and especially marketing. I am not sure why this is so hard for some to understand here, especially since several of us have and continue to break this down in the easiest to understand context for everyone.

I think Tim and others here are the ones making assumptions. This is especially disturbing to me as Tim is a salesman. If anyone should know, understand and respect these differences it would be a professional salesperson. I would like to know Tim what you sell and to whom. I'm guessing it is B2c by your discussions and mentalities. Ir I soften amazing how people only read content offered here in only the limyed perspective as it pertains only to them, rather than the larger picture or the industry perspective.

It makes me wonder how some here then must truly conduct their business by what they feel or believe themselves, or by the reality of the industry and marketplace?

This reminds me of this thread from a while back where a salesman thought he could easily be a booking representative for an entertainer. Sales people often have a delusions that they can sell anything and that all sales are the same. They are not. As pointed out in this thread, I foresaw exactly how this was going and it played out exactly for just these reasons. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=44

Walter's example of real estate business card is a prime example that the point seems completely missed.

Tin said "WDavis, my reply to this is that 1) it is a hasty generalization 2) it is disrespectful to sales professionals, specially to real estate professional" which is not a generalization which is why Walter took the time to detail and explain what he meant.

Also I question your (Tim's) use of the term "professional" sales. "I can only speak from experience from sales in a professional setting" In the context that this discussion about what you are referring to as professional sales (a person that sells for a living) if different than a salesperson serving professional markets. Yes, there are sales "professionals" in consumer markets which is what most here tend to refer to when addressing this issue.

Also let's deal in facts here, Walter has been a member here for over a decade and typically offers very keen insight based on experience in the real world of the topics of which he discusses.

I have never understood the resistance here to information being offered that one does not understand. They would rather fight and defend their limited perspectives and experiences here lately rather than learn and expand their knowledge base as typically done here in Tricky Business in the past.

Then of course on top of all of this I will still contend selling entertainment is far different than coventional sales in the first place. Rather than defending such limited perspectives, those that do not understand should be asking "why," "how" and the "whats" to truly understand the topic and subject matter being offered.
TomBoleware
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On Jun 16, 2017, Tim Friday wrote:
I can only speak from experience from sales in a professional setting, in very difficult to attain sales positions. It's not even usually referred to as business to business sales in the professional world, except maybe on a job posting.



Tim I think youíre right, a job posting would be about the only place where the phrase would fit in, it only confuses things here. I think itís mostly an ego inflator. Smile

Even in a job posting it would only state that the sales position requires you to call on businesses. With most products and services, including magic, the sales presentation remains about the same regardless of who you selling the product or service too. About the only thing that changes is the approach. This is why a job posting for a sales professional would say that the salesperson would be calling on businesses. They most likely prefer someone with some business world experience because this will help get a foot in the door, not that the selling part will be that much different.

I know many sales professionals that call on both individuals and businesses with very few changes. Itís no big deal. A little common sense will tell you that calling on a business instead of an individual would need some minor adjustments, but nothing like the whole b2b vs b2c thing often presented here.

Tom
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Mindpro
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It's not a matter of selling to individuals or businesses, as just because its a business does not make it in a professional market. There are both individuals and businesses comprising the consumer markets. You still do not understand the entire concept. It has nothing to do with ego, if anything its ignorance that is being demonstrated here.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 16, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 16, 2017, Tim Friday wrote:
I can only speak from experience from sales in a professional setting, in very difficult to attain sales positions. It's not even usually referred to as business to business sales in the professional world, except maybe on a job posting.



Tim I think youíre right, a job posting would be about the only place where the phrase would fit in, it only confuses things here. I think itís mostly an ego inflator. Smile

Even in a job posting it would only state that the sales position requires you to call on businesses. With most products and services, including magic, the sales presentation remains about the same regardless of who you selling the product or service too. About the only thing that changes is the approach. This is why a job posting for a sales professional would say that the salesperson would be calling on businesses. They most likely prefer someone with some business world experience because this will help get a foot in the door, not that the selling part will be that much different.

I know many sales professionals that call on both individuals and businesses with very few changes. Itís no big deal. A little common sense will tell you that calling on a business instead of an individual would need some minor adjustments, but nothing like the whole b2b vs b2c thing often presented here.

Tom


You just can't help yourself can you? You are going to ruin this thread aren't you?
Danny Doyle
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TomBoleware
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Mindpro, for about two years I was a pharmaceutical sales representative calling on true professionals. I have also sold high dollar insurance policies in a professional market setting, so I know what a professional market is.

Itís simply ANY place where you have professionals acting in a professional way. Itís nothing more or nothing less. Itís not some deep dark secret that most here don't understand.


Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

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Mindpro
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On Jun 16, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Itís simply ANY place where you have professionals acting in a professional way. Itís nothing more or nothing less. Itís not some deep dark secret that most here don't understand.

Tom


No it is absolutely not. That may be your definition, but not at all what we are referring to here. You are completely wrong on this.
TomBoleware
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Also, my experience has taught me that if you act and treat others in a professional way regardless of what you doing, they will return the favor and you will find yourself working in a professional market. Often itís up to you to create that professional market surroundings.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

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Mindpro
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Now you are just making up your own definitions. That is not what we are talking about here.
WDavis
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Quote:
On Jun 16, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro, for about two years I was a pharmaceutical sales representative calling on true professionals. I have also sold high dollar insurance policies in a professional market setting, so I know what a professional market is.

Itís simply ANY place where you have professionals acting in a professional way. Itís nothing more or nothing less. Itís not some deep dark secret that most here don't understand.


Tom


Tom,
Where you calling on Kaiser Permanente, Scripps, Sharp? Those are considered corporate and would be the closest to a true b2b sales vs. the s-corp'd doctor operating a private practice still falls under a b2c umbrella because the dollar threshold in the business. Remember I spoke on the other thread about market thresholds and who falls where.. The sales professionals for Merck, MedAssets, etc are night and day different between the private practice and a Kaiser Permanente.

My main point is relationship selling is completely different then a cold calling sales rep. I will give you a personal example, before I left the last bank I was at, I build the credit department for the lender finance platform. During that time, I had a cold calling sales rep from Hoover's calling me weekly to try and get me to sign up with them. He would run thru a script and offer me a free demo etc. in the end I never bought it, why I already had established relationships with Dunn & Bradstreet and CapitalIQ. I even told him so, and DnB is owned by Hoovers. Yet he had to call and put in the dialing for dollars. I tried telling him he won't get deals woth larger financial institutions this way. His reply, this is what I'm paid to do, I've got a list and I need to call it. I asked him in reply, what other banks are on his list. From an asset under management we were the largest at 8billion At that time. And to put this in context we were the lower end of middle market threshold for commercial banking. The rest of his list were community banks and mortgage lenders. We operated at different levels. His ideal customer was also mine. In the end I threw him a bone and said to start networking build relationships by going to certain events meet these people then offer his services vs cold calling, I even said call this guy tell him I sent you and to talk about hoovers industry research sheets. He did ended up getting the sale because he networked talked with the guy used me as a basis to start a relationship. It was that relationship that closed the sale not his product.
WDavis
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On Jun 16, 2017, Tim Friday wrote:
I can only speak from experience from sales in a professional setting, in very difficult to attain sales positions. It's not even usually referred to as business to business sales in the professional world, except maybe on a job posting.


Tim,
Management consulting and corporate &investment banking refer to b2b and b2c in consulting decks, bank books, and even in some pitch books. But analysts learn very quickly about markets and channels, as we drill The business framework into them day 1. If they don't get it, they usually get sent to the bench/beach till they leave the firm.

What industry do you work as a salesman? This would help give context to your views.
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