It *is* sad. Magic books and marketed tricks seem to go out of print pretty quickly. I have a solid EC; I'm not sure what my style is called. I ultimately settled on the version Giobbi teaches, so whatever that is -- "dealing," I'd guess. I don't know the JC, but it's on my list of sleights to learn. I said "beyond my level" partly because there was a lot to remember and partly because I don't know JC. So right now I'm focusing on learning tricks that use EC and small packet DL.


I like the magic gadget site a lot. Maybe Rod will be able to tell me how similar Royal Scam is to Sympathetic Cards.

The Ultimate Transposition by Paul Gordon uses this count.

Note to FlightRisk: You recommended "The Sympathetic Cards." I'd forgotten all about it since it was out of print, but just now, when I was reviewing this thread, I put two and two together: The trick came up on the Magic Gadget Site (on Youtube, I think), and I bought it, not remembering that you'd recommended it! So *that* worked out well!

Thanks,

Bob

Lots of “Twisting” effects use the Jordan count in addition to several other counts. There’s one in the Card College series (unsure on which book off the top of my head) where the twisted cards find a selection. Bill Goodwin has an identical handling where the four twisted cards turn face up immediately. Both great tricks for practicing a bunch of counts.

Thanks, iFeatherly. I'll see if I can find the one in Card College. It sounds like fun.


Bob

P. S. I checked the trick -- CC2, The Royal Acrobats. There's three false counts, ATFUS, and all kinds of other goodies. Too advanced for me now, but it's an attractive trick and will eventually be a great chance to try a bunch of sleights that I'll want to learn eventually in any case.

Yup! Just confirmed “The Royal Acrobats” is the one I was thinking of. Bill Goodwin’s is titled “Twisting the kings”

Thanks.

Besides Card College, what would be another recommended source to learn the Jordan count? I'm having difficulty locating good info [besides some terrible YouTube videos]

Three books:


1. Jerry Mentzer, Counts, Cuts, Moves, and Subtlety


2. Jon Racherbaumer, Counthasaurus


3. Ian Baxter, Basic Training (from Lybrary.com) Baxter also teaches the count on a video available on his website or Lybrary, I forget which.


Good luck, and welcome to the Café!


Bob

Hi Bob

Book Number 3, Basic Training, is by Ian Kendall

Oops! Thanks, cigmas. I even looked it up, saw "Kendall," and wrote "Baxtor" anyway. Glad you corrected me.

Bob

Is there a good video/DVD source for learning the Jordan count? I'm looking at the Elmsley Count project by BBM but I haven't turned up any specific reviews that comment on their Jordan work..

The Elmsley Count project covers the Jordan Count well but briefly. It should be enough if you already know the Elmsley Count. (And the disk covers the latter in *lots* of detail.)

See, my issue is I *don't* know the Elmsley count, but my idea was I would try to learn it AND the Jordan so that I could practice one after the other - but perhaps this is far too ambitious, and I should simplify.. either way, the Elmsley Count project is a likely starting point .. ... hopefully not a finishing point as well!!

Take what I say with a grain of salt, Betrayal Mix, because I'm by no means advanced in magic. But my advice would be to start with the Elmsley Count because so many packet tricks use it. If you're a beginner in card magic and prefer video, you might consider buying the whole Essential Card Magic Toolbox (mostly by Liam Montier), an eight DVD set that includes the two Elmsley Count disks (one goes into EC technique in great detail, and the other teaches nice tricks that use the count.) Another of the disks includes "self-working" tricks -- tricks that use little sleight of hand. I'm not sure the EC is the best sleight to start with, though, if you don't have much card experience; maybe others can chip in on this.


I'm assuming that you're just beginning -- if I'm wrong just ignore me! -- and there's zillions of threads in the New to Magic forum on the Café that you'd find interesting. People vary in their talents and speeds of learning. I started about five years ago and am finally just getting a decent double lift and Elmsley Count. I'm probably way at the slow end of the spectrum. But I just find magic, and sleight of hand in particular, so fascinating that I enjoy working on the sleights and don't mind (much) taking months and years to learn a sleight. So I'd say, if you enjoy working on this stuff, just keep at it and it will come, but it may take quite a while. And if you find yourself not enjoying it, that's okay -- life is full of lots of interesting things besides magic.



Hope that helps and didn't miss the target.


Best of luck,


Bob

Thanks for the kind and respectful words Bob - especially being nervous about misjudging me, but you are S P O T on the money, I'm an absolute beginning magic user - and I relish quality advice like this!!

I know myself well enough to know I need to focus on one or two things and doing them well rather then try and learn every single trick at once

the one trick I saw that made me know I had to learn magic was the Chicago Surprise Opener [also called the Red Hot Mama I think] and I absolutely wanted to learn it but the d***** l**t totally fried me so I decided to regroup and simplify - baby steps, baby steps, as they say... but I think you are right, focus on the Elmsley and get it down pat, then when I've mastered that, maybe I'll be brave enough to try a double lift!

It's tempting to want to learn everything at once! There's so much great stuff out there... Chicago Opener/Red Hot Mama was one of the tricks that I early on thought, "Oh, I just *have* to learn this!" Here I am, five years later, close to being able to perform it. (Again, that doesn't mean that *you'll* take that long.) A wise piece of advice that many people here have given me is: decide which trick you want to learn next, and learn the sleights needed for the trick. (Of course, the sleights need to be at a level appropriate to *your* level.) That helps focus your learning.


By the way, Chicago Surprise is a different trick -- it's Whit "Pop" Haydn's variation on Chicago Opener. It's brilliant, and you can find lots of youtube videos of him performing it and other effects. He's created a very funny character that he assumes when performing and he's a wonderful actor. Someday I may be advanced enough to learn Chicago Surprise.


Honestly, I don't know which is easier to learn for beginners, Elmsley or DL. Maybe neither is the best to start with. You might want to look at The Card Magic of Nick Trost, available as an ebook -- he's famous for inventing tricks that are effective yet use few sleights, and generally easier ones. There's also a four (?) - disk set by Gerry Griffin. I forget its name, but he does a nice job of starting from the beginning and moving gradually to more complicated material. Harry Lorayne's The Magic Book is good in that way, too. And the five volume Card-College by Roberto Giobbi is unparalleled in its scope and clarity. Ian Kendall's Basic Training (Lybrary.com) is unusual, though not unique, in the way he breaks sleights down into small steps and gives you drills for each step to do before you move to the next step. He starts with the Elmsley Count!


One last thought: Winston Churchill adopted painting as a hobby during a period when he was not able to be involved in politics. A friend saw him tentatively dabbing paint on his canvas, and she said, No, no, you have to just dive in! She dipped the brush in one of the paints and splashed it on the canvas with a devil-may-care attitude. I think the same is true of all human activities -- you have to be willing to just try stuff and make a fool of yourself. I'm lucky in that I don't mind messing up sleights when I'm by myself, but it's perfectly understandable that some people might feel that way. What gets to me is performing. I get very nervous. Well, so, that's life: you capitalize on your strengths and shore up your weaknesses.


-- Sorry if that sounded pompous. My point was simply to keep at it; the only way to progress is to just keep trying and trying and messing up and learning (sometimes) from the messing up.



Bob

Not pompous at all Bob, and thanks again for being both generous with your time and experience - I had not heard of a few of these sources but I'm keen to get cracking! I'm going to have a peek at Trost and Griffin, methinks!

My pleasure, Betrayal Mix. Have fun!


Bob