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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Can you put "exposure" in the bank? (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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TomBoleware
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I thought it was a great video and he did say it may not be for everybody and that he set some ground rules.
It worked for him so I say, Well Done Michael.

I personally see no problem with giving away free samples, some businesses do it all the time to promote the business.
I never have bought into the idea that free shows only lead to more free shows. That’s true only if you allow it to happen.

Still, there is nothing wrong with saying no either.


Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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Dannydoyle
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Doing free shows has nothing to do with samples.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
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I hope the OP does come back to the conversation, because it does seem odd that a Major Coporation" is seeking free entertainment. First off, what does that really mean? Who was actually seeking the free entertainment (what division of the company)? Why would they want their reputation associated with some kind of arrangements where one is coming with no performance expectations?
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Doing free shows has nothing to do with samples.



Of course it does, if you plan it that way.

In this case on the video it sounded like it worked that way. He set the rules that he could start and end the sets the way he wanted, he could insert promoting himself, he could hand out cards, etc. He gave a good sample of his work and they hired him from it.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
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Tom Boleware
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TomBoleware
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Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Once again it seems the OP, obrienmagic, is only using us to promote his podcast and feels no need to contribute to his own posts. The Pop-In Gang appears once again. We're good enough for them to promote but not participate. Maybe its just me but it seems very akin to flaming in many ways. Pop in, start a conversation, debate or whatever, then step out...until the next podcast needs promoting.


When others are kind enough to come here and share info we shouldn’t question their motive for doing so.
Who cares if it does promote his podcast. Nor should we drill them with a million questions, should we?

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 20, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Doing free shows has nothing to do with samples.



Of course it does, if you plan it that way.

In this case on the video it sounded like it worked that way. He set the rules that he could start and end the sets the way he wanted, he could insert promoting himself, he could hand out cards, etc. He gave a good sample of his work and they hired him from it.

Tom



No it doesn't. A sample is when you give part of your services. A SAMPLE. What he did was give them an entire service, in exchange for consideration. It is a fee. It is not a sample in any way shape or form.

If he feels the need to do this for free in hopes of landing gigs then so be it. If that is somehow a business model then cool. But lets at least talk about what it is. Lets not use rationalization and justification and change the entire meaning of the language just to feel better about doing it. That is delusional and unhelpful.

A restaurant as a rule does not give out entire meals as "samples". They may indeed run 2 for one specials, they may discount, they may do lots of things but samples are in no way generally an entire good or service. Many services will give you the first time free. Fine, but that is not a sample. Words mean things Tom, can we go with the meanings most agree upon?

You can argue that it is a good idea, you can say it is a good business model, you can say good job. All that is perfectly valid.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Ken Northridge
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Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yes I think so as well, but like to assume the best of people. It is my weakness.


This is not a weakness. Its a wonderful quality to have!

Frankly, the OP is shocking to me. I've tried to reserve judgement, but the fact of the matter is we don't know what kind of success this 'wisdom' produces. It would be nice to know if the podcast points to concrete results.

Its certainly something I would never recommend. I don't think I ever did a free show for 'exposure', even when I was first starting out. My time is valuable and worth something. Donating your time to a charity you believe in is fine, but I would never expect anything in return except the gratification I got from helping someone.

I just don't understand this mind set.
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TomBoleware
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Danny, I know several magicians that have worked a free night at a restaurant in order to show the manager how they can help the business. They did the exact same thing they would do if they were being paid. If that isn’t a free sample I don’t know what is. But if you just want to be picky, ‘free trial’ would probably be a better word. You right words do mean something, so maybe from now on we need to correct all your many typos. Smile


Ken, he said on the video he booked two shows from the free one. How can you say it won’t work when it worked for him? May not work for you but it worked for him.

I’ve just always found it hard telling someone they can’t do something when they have already done it. Smile

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that a full time pro should go out and do a bunch of free shows. But time means nothing to those not having something to do. In the beginning working for free would be a better learning experience than being locked up in the room doing card tricks for yourself.


Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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Ken Northridge
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I guess it all depends on your definition of success. I don't consider booking two shows a success, or a business strategy to brag about and advise others to pursue.

As to your restaurant example, I would consider that an audition. I have done this several times but only for 30-minutes or so, and the condition was the manager had to be available to see the reaction to the patrons.

I take it back. I did offer a free night to a restaurant. They put me in a party room where they were having a children's birthday party! They used me for a free night of entertainment for a party they were having! I never got the gig either!

This is just one example of the lack of respect you receive when you work for free.
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Mindpro
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Once again, this is another prime example of consumer vs. professional markets and mentalities at play. Walter has asked that posters provide a context into their posts in order to have a better understanding and clarification to offer the proper responses or input. I suggest every post begin with "I work consumer markets and here is..." or "I work professional markets and I was wondering..." This is at the root of almost every single post here as they truly are two different things, so defining your position could be sooo helpful to properly explain your position and for others to understand how to respond. It would make life so much easier, if people could be honest with themselves of course.

I couldn't disagree with you more Tom. what was kind or great about he video? What was helpful? He posted a minimally informed opinion that if others followed the advice they could incur negative issues they may prefer to avoid or have repercussions. How is that helpful?

This is another example of you not understanding that entertainment business is different than conventional business as your samples statement demonstrates.

And yes, I am offended when someone pops in for their own promotion of a podcast of nothing more than an opinion without any other further participation. I and other spend a great amount of time, effort and thought into our posts and sharing professional content. For someone just to come in to only drop his plug and leave is very offensive for those that take this seriously and for others that are truly here to learn.

Then to even call these amateur videos a podcast is also a joke. Its a youtube video at best. I'd be embarrassed to be offering such video opinions and calling and promoting it as a podcast, yet with shoddy or at best questionable advice advice in a forum about business. I've noticed several of these podcasts around here have been offering some horrible advice and you've praised all of them Tom.

There's also no care or concerns about the industry or market in his views either. This is a lot of "me" thinking not in any way in the best interest of the industry or any kind of real business model.
TomBoleware
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Not a nice way to treat our guests here Mindpro. And I was just waiting for you to blame the whole thread on not understanding the consumer vs professional market crap of yours. That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. Did you even watch the video and hear where he said this may NOT be for you? You’re just jealous and afraid of the competition. Why do you continue to insist that your way is the ONLY way? You could at least thank the guy for posting here before trashing his sharing of what happened to him. If it’s not for you so what, it worked for him is the point. No wonder your hateful post above was removed, you should be ashamed of yourself. Once again this is a prime example of why others don’t like posting here.

In the past I have advised several new magicians to do the same thing with restaurants. One continued working there weekly for 7 years after doing a free night. All the others were hired from the free tryout too. It’s called putting your money where your mouth is. Sometimes you have to give to get, and when you can give free time instead of money I say go for it.

Tom
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Dannydoyle
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Once again the loudest mouth here doesn't even work as a professional entertainer and never has on any real level.

How about posting those videos from your last paid show Tom? Remember that? You never did it. You were going to postc two and I would post one.
Danny Doyle
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charliecheckers
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I think things have to be further sorted out here. Free shows is a broad topic where the circumstances vary. The OP offered a video sharing a situation where someone contacted him asking for a free show. This is much different than pursuing a client or business opportunity. One may believe doing a free show in any circumstance is a poor choice, but I think for the sake of fully exploring what the OP offered as possibly being good advice, we should really focus on the situation where one is asked to perform for free, then discuss if there are any circumstances where one would be wise to accept or even pursue a counter proposal.
Dannydoyle
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I have to say the idea of a large company calling out of the blue and asking for a free show is odd. Not a fund raiser but a show or his services. This NEVER happens to me. That perception alone is the very start of the problems.

Why would anyone ever think of calling a professional of any sort and askibg if they work for free? Whatever causes THAT to happen devalues the service immediately, regardless of what Toms imaginary friends doing free nights in restaurants think.
Danny Doyle
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Mindpro
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Quote:
On May 21, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I was just waiting for you to blame the whole thread on not understanding the consumer vs professional market crap of yours. That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
Tom


It has everything to do with this! As others have said it is extremely odd any professional company would ever do something like this. And it teh consumer vs. professional market is not "crap of mine" it is something that has long existed regardless if you can comprehend it, understand it or choose not to accept this. And YES, it is at the root of probably 95% of all this nonsense of differences on the Café.

It is absolutely amazing to me that these limited, elementary opinions and homemade videos you accept as great, kind, and acceptable, yet you challenge decades of experience from in the industry working professionals. Absolutely amazing.

The fact that you have are not an entertainer, do not operate in this industry on a daily basis and have no clue about our industry and its business becomes more evident every day.

Like Walter said in another thread, he couldn't just pass by something that was being presented injustly or pushing questionable content. When THIS IS your business, life and work on a daily basis, many take this much more real and serious that your just being accepting of anything being passed as advice or fact.

I question everything said in the entire video. His definition of the corporation, his generalization, his value as a performer, his definition of success and mostly his level of experience. If he's happy and feels it worked for him, as others have said, fine, great good for him. But don't try to pass this off as sound advice, and certainly not as industry operations or something in the best interest of the industry.

Again, the loudest voice is the one not even in our industry. Why do you do this to every thread?
WDavis
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Charlie, It is highly doubtful any large company (publically traded or greater than $10Mn usd in revenue) will do this because of regulatory requirements, namely SOX, third party vendor regulations, and various business risks.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On May 21, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
No wonder your hateful post above was removed, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Tom


It was a one sentence funny post. There was nothing hateful in it at all. Did you even see it? Obviously not or your wouldn't be spreading more misinformation.
Dannydoyle
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In the spirit of understanding it might be a good time for Tom to tell us when his last paid show was and how often. Post those videos promised. Only because HE wanted to.

I am always curious as to why one who does not do this professionally on any level has so many loud opinions on literally EVERY single subject? Almost a nurosis.

I wish the OP would come back and clarify his experience for us. I think it can be a great discussion (Without Tom that is.). This is a point of view many share and exploring it can be educational. He nay be 100% correct for himself. Nothing wrong withthat. I would just encourage him to pop in and share more of his experience. It is certainly valid and interesting.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On May 21, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
No wonder your hateful post above was removed, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Tom


It was a one sentence funny post. There was nothing hateful in it at all. Did you even see it? Obviously not or your wouldn't be spreading more misinformation.

Yes he would.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny not being a full time pro may have an effect on my hearing, but did he say it wasn’t some sort of fundraiser?
I’m assuming they wanted the show for a good reason other than just getting something for free.

It was an 'event' that didn't have a budget for entertainment is my understanding. But that's just my guess.

I hardly think it was Bank Of America wanting a free show at their stock holders meeting.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

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