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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Can you put "exposure" in the bank? (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Mindpro
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I agree in the name of completeness. To offer just one small perception of this issue is very limiting and there is much many can learn from this topic of both what to do and what not to do for specific desired results. This is a very incomplete topic. Again entertainment is different from other types of business, and this is just another example.

Also how one handles this is the most important part, greater than the issue itself. Also the affect this can have on your business model, branding and positioning, and over value. So much that could be learned from here if we not get derailed by those having nothing to do with the topic or current experience in the industry or any valid industry input.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 21, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny not being a full time pro may have an effect on my hearing, but did he say it wasn’t some sort of fundraiser?
I’m assuming they wanted the show for a good reason other than just getting something for free.

It was an 'event' that didn't have a budget for entertainment is my understanding. But that's just my guess.

I hardly think it was Bank Of America wanting a free show at their stock holders meeting.

Tom


What minute and second does he use the word fundraiser?

And the thing to understand is now every company hiring him has the knowledge that he will work for free because he put it in this video.

Not the way I would do business but that is just me.

Not being a professional performer you probably don't see what is bad about this.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Thing is Michael IS a working professional performer.

But let me guess, professionals can be just as wrong as I am?

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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When did he is the word fundraiser Tom?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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He didn't say either way. He said it was an event so I assumed
it was a fundraiser or some other special event where some good prospects
would be attending. Like I said, just a guess. What's your guess? That it is
a bad idea and he should never have posted about it here? That it will wreck
peoples lives if they listen to him? He simply shared what worked for him.
Nice of him to do that, huh?


Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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I don't guess. That is the point. But since all you are doing is guessing that is ok by you.

And yes putting up video for clients to see like this is damaging.

Again you the loudest mouth, but no experience. Please just stop. The adults are talking.

Better yet post those videos.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WDavis
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Tom,

The issue is context. He is stating this is a viable strategy for success for business to business markets. Even a broken watch is correct twice a day, but it doesn't mean that it is works consistently or properly for the needed purpose.

My issue is that it establishes a precedent and others start following creating a run to the bottom in the long run. Why because someone enters into a market and doesn't grasp the dynamics and creates a structural shift. This is a kinked curve model situation. Then others also not understanding get their livelihoods crushed in trying to mimic someone to find some success and they confuse working harder for working smarter.
Mindpro
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Guessing, assumptions, and "in my mind" is the basis for all of these misperceptions and derailments. Not even rooted in entertainment or fact.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 21, 2017, WDavis wrote:
Tom,

The issue is context. He is stating this is a viable strategy for success for business to business markets. Even a broken watch is correct twice a day, but it doesn't mean that it is works consistently or properly for the needed purpose.

My issue is that it establishes a precedent and others start following creating a run to the bottom in the long run. Why because someone enters into a market and doesn't grasp the dynamics and creates a structural shift. This is a kinked curve model situation. Then others also not understanding get their livelihoods crushed in trying to mimic someone to find some success and they confuse working harder for working smarter.


Exactly. Why teach people to run to the bottom?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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This is one of the things that seems to occur regularly here is that discussions are taken down to the lowest level, dropping the bar which often isn't helpful or beneficial to anyone.

The idea is to progress success and efforts by raising the bar, improving and forward movement. This diminishing everything to a most basic level is really not helpful, productive or beneficial to anyone.

Most here are not beginners, so it isn't really helpful. When someone is a newbie or beginner, they usually identify themselves and are (again with the proper context) assisted appropriately.

Michael is selling products and offering advice from a a position of perceived experience which makes this, at harder to accept and the issue of fact vs. opinion even more crucial.

Using a vague disclaimer isn't helping anyone other than the OP in a sort of CYA way.
TomBoleware
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Mindpro I agree that “most here are not beginners, so it isn't really helpful.”

Nor is it hurtful. I don’t think he is trying to convince those that have been doing magic for years, to stop doing paid shows and start doing free shows. That’s stupid to even think he is suggesting that. To a beginner, yes I agree with him that in some instances it could be the right thing to do. And like he said, each will have to decide if it is right for them.

I wish more like him would post here.


Personally I would like to learn this magic stuff, I sure ain’t learning nothing from you and Danny.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Mindpro
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So sad really...
Dannydoyle
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Because you are the world's foremost authority on EVERYTHING!

You not learning nothing is on you. I have NO DOUBT of your lack of ability to learn. That is very clear.

But why do you insist on hampering others from learning? Shocking that you just can't keep quiet. Seriously man seek help. Maybe one of your imaginary friends knows a therapist.



Again you are not a professional. It is that simple. Your opinion is useless. Now stop attacking and stop doing this EVERY THREAD. Please Tom stop. My lord we know your opinion. We get it. My god just stop.

And it is not just Mindpro and I. It is Walter, and Ken as well. Don't localize it to just those you have problems with. Please act like an adult.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
obrienmagic
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Hey guys wow..... this blew up! haha Honestly I have been super busy (new dad) and trying my best to stay active on here. Let me do my best to reply to everyones comments asap! Smile Thank you for such an awesome discussion!
obrienmagic
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Quote:
On May 19, 2017, TKD27 wrote:
I feel like this kind of thing makes a lot of sense when you're first starting out and building a name for yourself, but obviously is a bad idea once you're established. But yeah - if you're business is young and you're not going to have paying work, then do free gigs because you're investing your time in advertising. Instead of investing money on Adwords, you're investing your time to get out there and showcase yourself to potential clients. I did this in the beginning and, like you, would often book paying gigs off that work.

But once you're established it doesn't make sense. You have to remember that a free gig means you're going to turn away paying work to do it. But also, you have to factor that lost revenue in to the cost of the shows you book. So supposed you pass up a single $200 paying event in order to do a free gig, and you then book two $200 shows from the free gig, you're essentially doing those two shows for $100 each. Now, again, that might make a lot of sense when you're starting out and establishing yourself. But it's a bad idea when you're already established.


I am at a point right now where I do not need to necessarily take gigs for free. I do not let people "talk me into" anything. lol However, let us assume for a minute that an opportunity came along where I would be able to benefit from it. Sort of a qui pro quo situation. For example, I recently was contacted by KTLA 5 to do a spot with them. It was not a paid gig. However, IMO it also wasn't "free" either, because the amount of exposure I would be getting out of it, plus promo material, plus recognition, etc. balances out. So did I hurt the art by appearing on their channel for "free?" This is a thing where we are not talking about the art of magic, but rather the business side of it. From a business perspective I saw it as an opportunity to improve my company so I took it. It in NO WAY devalues what I do or the art.
obrienmagic
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On May 19, 2017, charliecheckers wrote:
Great topic, and raised with a specific example- which creates better discussion opportunity.

I think if a large corporation were to approach me in a similiar manner, I would like to think that I would not immediately concede that there are only two options - take a no pay show or leave it. To me, this is only the beginning of the negotiation and an opportunity for me to share how my services can address their needs in unique ways, offering benefits they may have not considered- benefits that might even impact other aspects of their business where such budget money would be available.

The negotiations mentioned in the video - start/stop times and unlimited breaks seem like terrible negotiations from a business perspective. Any job worth doing, should be worth doing right. Negotiations that include video, photographs, and testimonials from recognized and meaningful patrons would be some to consider. One could negotiate future meeting with key decision makers at the large corporation for future paid gigs directly from the company. One could negotiate an internal mailing campaign for employees of the organization. There are many more possibilities.

As it stands, this podcast serves to illustrate how many of us fall down in negotiations and think little of our time and talent. That being said, I think those who automatically turn down such offers also can be making a mistake not to consider a negotiation.


Great point with the breaks and what not. The point was that since I was doing it for free I was doing it on my terms. For example had a paid gig come up, I would have canceled the other one. The negotiations IMO were basically to benefit my company because the client in question was basically letting me access their client pool for free. And yes, I have booked a few gigs just off this free opportunity. The people telling me that taking free gigs is hurting me are the same ones I see doing free library demos lol
Dannydoyle
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On May 21, 2017, obrienmagic wrote:
Hey guys wow..... this blew up! haha Honestly I have been super busy (new dad) and trying my best to stay active on here. Let me do my best to reply to everyones comments asap! Smile Thank you for such an awesome discussion!


My assumption that you were busy was correct! Congrats on the new dad thing brother.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
obrienmagic
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On May 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Point is if you say no they will move on to the next magician, which is part of the problem and only devalues the performer and perpetuates magicians are simply interchangeable.


True, however that was not the point I was trying to make. For example let us assume that I charge $200 for a 30 minute show. But the client offers me $50. Im not going to take it because "well someone else may do it so I may as well...." lol The return I would be making on my product vs. the amount of time and effort I put in would not be balanced. So therefore would not be a smart transaction. However, let us assume the same situation, but in addition to this I would have access to their client's email list? That may be worth my time if their client pool are the demographic I am aiming for. In other words, bartering and trading can be just as valuable as doing a gig for money.

On top of that if I did not take this one free gig, I would not have made those other sales which ended up being cripple what I would have charged that client for in that particular event.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 21, 2017, obrienmagic wrote:
Quote:
On May 19, 2017, charliecheckers wrote:
Great topic, and raised with a specific example- which creates better discussion opportunity.

I think if a large corporation were to approach me in a similiar manner, I would like to think that I would not immediately concede that there are only two options - take a no pay show or leave it. To me, this is only the beginning of the negotiation and an opportunity for me to share how my services can address their needs in unique ways, offering benefits they may have not considered- benefits that might even impact other aspects of their business where such budget money would be available.

The negotiations mentioned in the video - start/stop times and unlimited breaks seem like terrible negotiations from a business perspective. Any job worth doing, should be worth doing right. Negotiations that include video, photographs, and testimonials from recognized and meaningful patrons would be some to consider. One could negotiate future meeting with key decision makers at the large corporation for future paid gigs directly from the company. One could negotiate an internal mailing campaign for employees of the organization. There are many more possibilities.

As it stands, this podcast serves to illustrate how many of us fall down in negotiations and think little of our time and talent. That being said, I think those who automatically turn down such offers also can be making a mistake not to consider a negotiation.


Great point with the breaks and what not. The point was that since I was doing it for free I was doing it on my terms. For example had a paid gig come up, I would have canceled the other one. The negotiations IMO were basically to benefit my company because the client in question was basically letting me access their client pool for free. And yes, I have booked a few gigs just off this free opportunity. The people telling me that taking free gigs is hurting me are the same ones I see doing free library demos lol



Ooo ouch see this is not professional. Not in my view. Once you take a job and they expect you terms are done and you go do it other work not withstanding. It lashes you with a bass name to do otherwise.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
obrienmagic
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On May 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Once again it seems the OP, obrienmagic, is only using us to promote his podcast and feels no need to contribute to his own posts. The Pop-In Gang appears once again. We're good enough for them to promote but not participate. Maybe its just me but it seems very akin to flaming in many ways. Pop in, start a conversation, debate or whatever, then step out...until the next podcast needs promoting.


I am very disappointed mindpro. If you knew my situation (which you obviously don't because you just assume what you want to) then you would know that I am a working magician who also runs an online store, who is also trying to book gigs who is also a stay at home father who is also trying to support his family including a full time student wife who doesn't work. If it bothers you so much that it has been a week since I replied (to what.... 5 comments? lol) then I'm sorry but that is your problem. Smile
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