The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Can you put "exposure" in the bank? (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
obrienmagic
View Profile
Special user
594 Posts

Profile of obrienmagic
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZQAVsCNzr4

Feel free to hear my thoughts on the matter. Would love to know what yall think about it!
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
If it works for you cool.

But why do it for free? Don't the exact same rules apply at a paid Show? In which case you lose money.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TKD27
View Profile
Elite user
Meriden, CT
431 Posts

Profile of TKD27
I feel like this kind of thing makes a lot of sense when you're first starting out and building a name for yourself, but obviously is a bad idea once you're established. But yeah - if you're business is young and you're not going to have paying work, then do free gigs because you're investing your time in advertising. Instead of investing money on Adwords, you're investing your time to get out there and showcase yourself to potential clients. I did this in the beginning and, like you, would often book paying gigs off that work.

But once you're established it doesn't make sense. You have to remember that a free gig means you're going to turn away paying work to do it. But also, you have to factor that lost revenue in to the cost of the shows you book. So supposed you pass up a single $200 paying event in order to do a free gig, and you then book two $200 shows from the free gig, you're essentially doing those two shows for $100 each. Now, again, that might make a lot of sense when you're starting out and establishing yourself. But it's a bad idea when you're already established.
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
9824 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
I'm not so sure it's about turning away paid work or you wouldn't be doing it in the first place. The problem (one of many with this) is you are not establishing any value, you are actually diminishing any value you may have. On the context this is being offered it is what is called a "loss leader" in business. You are willing to do it for free (accepting the loss of/no income) for the chance of generating something paid.

Of course there are much better ways to do this. As the above poster said for newbie or beginners just seeking initial stage time, perhaps (but charity gigs are not a good place to do so for many reasons, which I've seen blow up terribly), but the problem is they do what would be their complete paid show for nothing. If one was to do this they should have a reduced offering so that they are not giving away their valued position.

I agree, when once established its not always a wise business decision. In my Entertainers Business Toolkit I offer some ways to turn these offers for free or charity bookings into paid bookings without devaluing your position and worth.

Also one must remember "exposure" is only good once you are at a place to want and monetize the exposure. Most go into these events prematurely and without a proper plan of doing this. They just leave it up to chance and HOPE they get something from it.

This podcast seems to often just touch on a topic and leaves so much unsaid or still on the table.
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1967 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Great topic, and raised with a specific example- which creates better discussion opportunity.

I think if a large corporation were to approach me in a similiar manner, I would like to think that I would not immediately concede that there are only two options - take a no pay show or leave it. To me, this is only the beginning of the negotiation and an opportunity for me to share how my services can address their needs in unique ways, offering benefits they may have not considered- benefits that might even impact other aspects of their business where such budget money would be available.

The negotiations mentioned in the video - start/stop times and unlimited breaks seem like terrible negotiations from a business perspective. Any job worth doing, should be worth doing right. Negotiations that include video, photographs, and testimonials from recognized and meaningful patrons would be some to consider. One could negotiate future meeting with key decision makers at the large corporation for future paid gigs directly from the company. One could negotiate an internal mailing campaign for employees of the organization. There are many more possibilities.

As it stands, this podcast serves to illustrate how many of us fall down in negotiations and think little of our time and talent. That being said, I think those who automatically turn down such offers also can be making a mistake not to consider a negotiation.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
I am never a fan of such negotiations. Seems to end up in confusion more often than not.

Any time you negotiate you value yourself in their mind forever. This is simply the truth. I do not want my value to have anything to do with testimonials, other bookings, when I take breaks, meeting decision makers, mailing lists or anything other than what my value is.

To establish my value it is very clear. I am worth X. Simple as can be.

I have done this from day one. I am not saying it is right. If you want to do free shows go ahead. If you want to negotiate away money feel free. In my mind it seems more like justification than good business.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
9824 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Point is if you say no they will move on to the next magician, which is part of the problem and only devalues the performer and perpetuates magicians are simply interchangeable.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Then the pitch was wrong.

Every time someone comes to you for a show a sale is made. Either you sell them a show, or they sell you on a reason they don't want it.

Your value should be established long before you give a price. Every bit of negotiation devalues that price.

I have no idea how kids shows work so I am not speaking across the board. Only for me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1967 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Great discussion- it may differ depending upon the situation and such, but I believe the value one receives from a performance almost always extends beyond just the financial component. Larger, and targeted audiences usually provide such value, even if the money is the same. An extreme example would be when I accepted the opportunity to perform at the White House for free, at an event that entertained my target audience. Of course I could have held tight on principle and turned down the gig, but that would have been crazy in my situation (I believe). I can conceive other such exceptions that would have such a potential upside, that I would be willing to waiver on my basic principle of getting paid the value of my show. Creating good will for a large corporation would be one such example, providing I had a pre-conceived way of it linking to a farther reaching goal.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
To be fair you had to apply to do the White House. Nobody offered it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
9824 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Once again it seems the OP, obrienmagic, is only using us to promote his podcast and feels no need to contribute to his own posts. The Pop-In Gang appears once again. We're good enough for them to promote but not participate. Maybe its just me but it seems very akin to flaming in many ways. Pop in, start a conversation, debate or whatever, then step out...until the next podcast needs promoting.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
He may be busy.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1967 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
To be fair you had to apply to do the White House. Nobody offered it.

This is true. See how easy it is for one to devalue themselves.
charliecheckers
View Profile
Inner circle
1967 Posts

Profile of charliecheckers
Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
He may be busy.


This is also true, but in fairness to the intent of the Café, it would be nice if people only began threads at times when they anticipated they would be available to join in the discussion - at least most of the time.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Yes I think so as well, but like to assume the best of people. It is my weakness.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
View Profile
Inner circle
9824 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
What happened to my post? What we can't handle a bit of levity and irony at the same time?
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
What was the post?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Point is if you say no they will move on to the next magician, which is part of the problem and only devalues the performer and perpetuates magicians are simply interchangeable.


But if they say no and they move on so be it. If they think you are interchangeable it is your fault. You control that perception.

I su not believe Ferrari devalues themselves by sticking to a price point.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WDavis
View Profile
Inner circle
1273 Posts

Profile of WDavis
Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On May 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Point is if you say no they will move on to the next magician, which is part of the problem and only devalues the performer and perpetuates magicians are simply interchangeable.


But if they say no and they move on so be it. If they think you are interchangeable it is your fault. You control that perception.

I su not believe Ferrari devalues themselves by sticking to a price point.


Danny, isn't the OP advocating that the magician work for free to generate "goodwill" from corporations? Personally, I think that's hogwash and is riddled with long term ramifications and flawed logic that's to long to post and will adversely hurt more businesses and industry perceptions. I've still got to finish my lexicon post before I can rip this idea of goodwill with corporations apart with facts.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20181 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Exactly my point.

The idea of getting "goodwill" from a corporation is just too flawed to even start on.

It is a positron that as I said seems more like justification for doing something afterwords than a strategy prior.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Can you put "exposure" in the bank? (6 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.2 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL