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funsway
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A commentator of a Sunday morning TV show offered: "Art is formed by the experience of the individual."

To the extent that most people today rely on vicarious rather that actual/personal experience, how does this impact magic as art?

Is a magic performance even considered to be art today? Is music, for that matter?

Just musing.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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All art is a lie. Our audience appreciates that what we offer is make-believe, a lie and thus they consider our magic art.

If our magic is represented by men who respect their art, no charlatan offering real magic can ever degrade it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 18, 2017, funsway wrote:
A commentator of a Sunday morning TV show offered: "Art is formed by the experience of the individual."

To the extent that most people today rely on vicarious rather that actual/personal experience, how does this impact magic as art?

Is a magic performance even considered to be art today? Is music, for that matter?

Just musing.


I guess the first question is considered to be art by whom? (Or is it who?)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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The patter, of course, is all a matter of taste, which is active, deciding, choosing, changing, arranging, etc., choices which are somewhat driven or related to individual experiences including our performances.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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The question is, tommy, whether the content of 'individual experience' today is significantly different from decades ago, and does the influence the choices a performer makes.

If art is a lie, then in order to engage an audience the performer must understand his own lie and that of the observer.
Then again, magic may no longer be perceived as art because the lies are so different.

"patter" of course, is but one part of selling the lie. What lie -- that is the question?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Doc Willie
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The American philosopher John Dewey's book on the Esthetics is entitled "Art as Experience" if you want to delve into this more.
funsway
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Read it, thank you. Just another reason to consider h.ow the "experience of art" is change by mostly vicarious rather than actual experience.

One can but wonder on how Dewey's views might have changed about a society biased by TV, if not computers.
When I was getting a Masters in Educational Technology a few years ago, folks like Dewey were not considered valid sources since they were educated before personal computers.

I understand that many college professors discourage the use of pre-computer sources in considering social change, communication, marketing, etc.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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WitchDocChris
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Quote:
On Jun 18, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I guess the first question is considered to be art by whom? (Or is it who?)


I believe whom is appropriate there.

I don't personally think magic is an art by default. I think it is a tool that can be used to create art.

My personal approach to creating a performance is to metaphorically break people out of that observer pattern, and bring them into an up close and personal experience. I like to try to get people to think about things that they wouldn't normally think about, to encourage connection and empathy. Lofty goals, I know, and I don't always succeed, but that's what I aim for.
Christopher
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Dannydoyle
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Is anything considered an art by default? I'm not being obnoxious but serious. Isn't art a distinction that must be earned?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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On Jun 19, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Is anything considered an art by default? I'm not being obnoxious but serious. Isn't art a distinction that must be earned?


I'm no art scholar so I can't speak definitively. My impression of it is that art is a subjective thing, and therefore no - nothing is art by default. What some consider art, others will consider garbage.

I think we can strive to present something we (as the performer) consider to be art, and that a percentage of the audience may consider it to be art, and that's the best we can do.
Christopher
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Dannydoyle
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I personally prefer to offer what I think will sell. Art can sort itself out.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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Certainly a valid approach.
Christopher
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tommy
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The patter may contain ideas in keeping with the times and the times they are changing.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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On Jun 19, 2017, tommy wrote:
The patter may contain ideas in keeping with the times and the times they are changing.



certainly one's patter can change to appeal or impact different audiences as to astonishment or mystery or attention.

but the question is about perceiving it as art.

Can you provide an example of a magic effect you have performed in which a change of patter has increased the perception of "magic as art?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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WitchDocChris
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My version of PK Touches has evolved dramatically over the years. It started out as a "This is a weird thing" kind of routine and is now a center piece of my show. Mostly that was due to changes in scripting and blocking (And some methodological changes as well).
Christopher
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tommy
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The audience is there for their amusement and amazment only. If anybody is there to consider whether it is art or not then they are probably an art critic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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On Jun 20, 2017, tommy wrote:
The audience is there for their amusement and amazment only.


I guess you have missed out on someone coming up twenty years after you performed and relate what an impact the performance had.

They don't talk about "being amused" or "amazed" -- they talk about emotions and creative ideas and hope and courage.

does that make it art? Not sure - but your opinion here is very limiting and even sad.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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Nobody ever talked about hope or courage 20 years after my performance because of my performance.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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What then, Ken, is your aim and procedure?

What then, Ken, do you think the audience are there for?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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On Jun 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Nobody ever talked about hope or courage 20 years after my performance because of my performance.


You apparently have a formula that works for you -- and this is great!

Possibly the way I performed back then, and thought about magic, had an influence. Maybe I was just fortunate or cursed.

The question on this thread is whether or not "magic as art' for either of us enters the picture?

We can attempt to be artistic from our perspective with no assurance the audience will feel the same way,
or they may see art beyond (in spite of) what we do. An audience has expectations about what will occur. Is art part of that?
When they purchase a ticket for your show, Danny, they have expectations different from when they choose to see me or tommy (I assume)

What if no one has ever talked to you about hope and courage because they do not think you wish to hear it?

I chose not to make a career out of performing magic for entertainment. The reasons may subconsciously influence my performance. Don't know.
I do know what happened when I performed magic tricks and they did not know I was magician or have any expectations of magic about to occur. Not art certainly, but very effective.

I explore these ideas because I do not know what to expect of today's audiences.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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