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funsway
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Your answer first, tommy - just give us an example of what you mean from personal experience.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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The obvious difference is I don't think you or tommy sell tickets do you?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
The obvious difference is I don't think you or tommy sell tickets do you?



I have not charged for a performance in the last 55 years and never perform "on demand."

Before college and Viet Nam I did charge for shows but never sold tickets.

Thus, the expectations of the audience seeing my magic effects is certainly different from people paying to see a "famous" magician.

Where does art come in? I am not sure. Is it even important? I feel that it is, but not as a need to pursue it.

I just don't want to stand in the way of someone who finds art in what I do - as some have in the past.

So, I ask questions.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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When people pay the expectation is far different. As is your responsibly to the audience.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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Well, I was born in a gaming house and cut my teeth on a pack of cards. Johnny Gough my uncle who I was raised with was Britain’s top professional gambler; he did conjuring for fun and for our amusement. I naturally wanted to be like him. One thing led to another and here I am an amateur card guy, who runs gaming house. If it was not for that individual experience I might not be interested in our magic at all. I do what I do because I don’t know anything else.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Doug Trouten
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The question of whether magic performance is (or should be) considered art is an interesting one, but I don't think it's possible to give a meaningful answer without first arriving at a shared understanding of "art." What does it mean to be considered art? Ken -- when you posed the question originally, what meaning did you have in mind for "art"?
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 20, 2017, Doug Trouten wrote:
The question of whether magic performance is (or should be) considered art is an interesting one, but I don't think it's possible to give a meaningful answer without first arriving at a shared understanding of "art." What does it mean to be considered art? Ken -- when you posed the question originally, what meaning did you have in mind for "art"?



I guess I feel that any experience that evokes an emotional response/reflection beyond the object or demonstration itself is art.

For example, if I look at a painting of the ocean and I just compare it with other paintings it is not art. Ditto if I only appraise technique.
But if it prompts me to remember walking hand in hand with my first girl friend it is art.

Similarly, if a magic demonstration only causes the observer to be amazed or mystified it is not art.
If it causes them to think, "So that is what real magic would look like if it existed" it might be art.
If it prompts one to ponder, "maybe my problem at work is solvable after all" it probably is art.

If it causes the observer to see other things of awe and wonder throughout the day it is certainly art. -- even after danny's show Smile

Where I get hung up today is whether any of that can happen watching a video,
or whether "see awe and wonder in real life" is possible for those with mostly vicarious experience?

there is an old query, "If you meet a stranger and have one chance to communicate something of who you are,
would you tell a story, sing a song, do a magic trick or show them photos of your family?"

I am no longer sure that "show a trick" is a good option. Any of these could be considered art by the stranger even though that is not your intent.

The professor who posed this problem suggested that if consideration led to any change in your personal value system/orientation then the question itself is art.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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All art is a lie. Only known lies can be appreciated as art. Therefore, then, in our magic the patter is art. The steps of the experiment up to the climax are not appreciated lies; through their eyes, they are simply facts, so not art to them. The patter etcetera, are emotional appeals, whereas the steps of the experiment are rational appeals. At the climax the art apparently becomes fact! The dilemma is art and science at the same time. They know the nonsense can’t make sense but does! It is amazing because it is impossible but it is also importantly amusing because it is absurd.

The charlatan lies in his patter but there is a big difference. The charlatan is offering a true story; i.e. He really is talking to your dead mother! The emotional impact of such can be massive. Why because the victim loves his mother and such gives him hope, etcetera. The charlatan will often say to that, well so what? Moreover, the charlatan may well consider himself a great artist because he has had a great impact on his victim and also the victim may well love the charlatan for 20 years or more. The charlatan might tell us we are missing out doing it our way, for amusement.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Doc Willie
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2017, funsway wrote:
Read it, thank you. Just another reason to consider h.ow the "experience of art" is change by mostly vicarious rather than actual experience.

One can but wonder on how Dewey's views might have changed about a society biased by TV, if not computers.
When I was getting a Masters in Educational Technology a few years ago, folks like Dewey were not considered valid sources since they were educated before personal computers.

I understand that many college professors discourage the use of pre-computer sources in considering social change, communication, marketing, etc.


So Joh Dewey has been replaced by Marshall McLuhan? <Showing my age!>
Doug Trouten
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Ken, your definition of art still isn't clear to me.

In some ways, you seem to be saying that art is in the eye of the beholder. You say art evokes an emotional response behind the object itself -- that's an audience-based view. And if your response to a painting is to compare it with others, or to evaluate technique, then it's not art. The focus is on how the audience responds.

But you also raise the issue of the creator's intent -- noting that doing a trick, singing a song, etc. could be considered art by a stranger, even though that is not your intent.

Let's say I create a Father's Day routine that is intended to provoke a powerful emotional response and to encourage audience members to engage in fresh thinking about parent-child relationships. And let's say the routine is successful in that regard -- audience members have a strong emotional response, and are motivated to seek more rewarding relationships with their fathers. I'm guessing this would meet your definition of art.

But what if we take away either intent or response? What if I craft the routine to evoke a particular response, but it fails to connect. Is it no longer art, or is it just ineffective art?

Or what if I wasn't seeking any deeper meaning but was just doing a card trick using supplied patter, but for some reason it just hits an audience member the right way and they have a powerful and life-changing response -- based more on what they brought to the table than on what I brought to the table. Is that art? Perhaps unintentional art?

Or does art require both intent and response?
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett
Dannydoyle
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I am just saying what I do is art and I seriously doubt beyond enjoying it for what it is anybody has life changing experiences based upon seeing my show.

For me that is a pretty big leap. I just don't see it happening.

Note I said for me and did not make universal claims for truth.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
Where I get hung up today is whether any of that can happen watching a video,
or whether "see awe and wonder in real life" is possible for those with mostly vicarious experience?


I say yes, but that it's pretty rare and tricky to do. I have seen a few videos of magic performances that I perceived as art.

Quote:
Only known lies can be appreciated as art.


I'm not sure that's true. Is a sculpture of something that was believed to be a real thing, but turns out not to be a real thing, not still art? Is a moving story about someone's family, which inspires audiences to do or feel something, not art if that story turns out not to be true?

I don't think someone has to know it's a lie for it to be art.

I am much more inclined to believe that art is something that inspires or evokes thoughts or emotions. Whether it's true or not. Look at the comedy of Louis CK - he tells one story I really like, where he talks about how he was on a plane and they had WiFi (this was when it was just introduced), and he's using it and it's amazing. Then it breaks down and the guy next to him says, "This is bulls***!". Then Louis talks about how this guy went from seeing this awesome new thing, to being entitled to it in seconds. It was a commentary on our nature of taking things for granted, and it really resonated with me at the time. It was the piece that got me liking Louis CK's comedy.

Some time later, maybe a year or more, I found out that the true story was a bit different. Turns out, it was Louis who said it was BS, there was no other guy. But it was funnier to say it that way, and it made more of an impact. I still took the lesson and feelings away from the original story, though, even though I didn't find out it was a lie until significantly later. It was not a known lie, but I do consider it to have been art.
Christopher
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funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 21, 2017, Doug Trouten wrote:

Or does art require both intent and response?


I do not think I implied that the performer must have intent to influence a person "beyond the object" --
just that one be aware it can happen and not put barriers in the way.

Just attempting to manipulate another person's emotional response is not art either. I can produce astonishment.
I cannot command that the observer think "must be magic" or think "Art" because I find it to be artful.
But, if I sell tickets to those with a history of thinking "magic" and claiming it is art, my expectation of either increases

I am not trying to define art as much as understand why/how magic can be art. But you asked.
More specifically. If I as an "old fart" find an effect to be both art and magic, can I expect a vicariously conditioned teen-ager to respond the same?

Say I have a personal experience of a butterfly landing on my finger, then seemingly vanish without a trace. I have a "feel good" response.
I now want to recreate that special moment for another. I might use music or a story or a magic effect or a painting.
If I the observer also has a "feel good" moment it is possibly art. My intent was to create the opportunity, not to force a specific response.

Now consider a spectator coming up after your one-coin routine and saying, "As I watched that coin appear, vanish and mysteriously jump about,
I was taken back to a childhood experience with a butterfly." Then it is art even though I had no intent beyond entertaining with a coin.

Using by "vicarious experience" view, can a person who has never seen a real butterfly offer such a statement? Can they appreciate the art of the coin?

If they say, "That coin reminds me of a butterfly on TV last week," is it art? I don't know. Is any "feel good" reaction because they relate to a butterfly,
or because of an ego stroke from having a good TV?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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funsway
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On Jun 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

I just don't see it happening.

.


I have a friend in Vegas who saw your show. HIs girl friend drug him there because he had never seen any 'live' magic but complained about what he saw on TV.
After the show they had long discussions about the difference between live experiences and 'second hand' ones on TV or the Internet. This led to more dates.
They decided to explore going to live events and sharing movies together -- always followed by a discussion.
Then came love and more. They named their first kid Danny. He wants to say thanks. He didn't like your show, but ...
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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Wonderful story. If only it were anywhere near true it would bring a tear to my eye.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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It may not be exactly obvious to some that a sculpture of a woman is not a real woman. One cannot appreciate the art of duck making if on seeing a decoy duck one takes it to be real.



The patter servers the magic and good magic is not drowned in too much nonsense. If the theme of the patter be about father’s day then a magician may take father day gift and wrap it up in emotional nonsense. At the climax, however, their mind will not be on the emotions of father’s day but hooked on the horns of the dilemma.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Wonderful story. If only it were anywhere near true it would bring a tear to my eye.



tommy said that if it to be art it must be a lie.

I am trying to learn
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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I'm not certain how feeding the troll furthers the discussion point you are trying to make but ok.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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Actually Danny, a couple of your comments here and on another thread have me adjusting my views here.
while tommy's often serve to reenforce (defend my castle against the jabberwock)

Is not the reaction of shock, overwhelming surprise or even fear an "emotional" one beyond the objects and action?
Just because they are more Limbic than "controlled/subdued" does not eliminate them from the art consideration.

Perhaps ALL magic is art because the experience takes the observer "out of normal."
Even to have a busy/distractible person become completely absorbed in a magic routine can be considered "out of normal."

It would certainly be simpler to consider ALL magic demonstrations to be art by their implicit nature than be concerned over quality or intensity of emotion.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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The Jabberwocky is the very definition of the patter; a fabulous beast, known not to exist, in reality. The willingness and ability of one to suspend disbelieve, to go along temporarily allowing one to believe something that is not true, is only possible when one is aware it is a lie. Therefore, then, it is necessary that the magician desiring that makes his audience aware his patter is a Jabberwocky. As the magician capture their hearts with the Jabberwocky, he step by step, with rational facts, conjures up the Jabberwocky into reality! When the Jabberwocky in reality suddenly appears at your gate, then you will be in a dilemma old boy.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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