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funsway
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"in a dilemma old boy"

that is an assumption not base don any facts - certainly not on how I would handle such a situation.

I liked your post until you tried to change your "opinion" into a statement of how I (or anyone) should think.

One might also consider that the Jabberwock is "inner fear" and very real for each person. There is no "suspension of disbelief" involved, just consideration of how to
deal with such fears that are already "within the alls" and never "at the gate."

This has little to do with "patter" - the verbal story a performer offers. The psychology behind the selection of a trick for a specific audience may be based on a guess at hidden fears,
but that is never spoke aloud. A good guess can increase the chance that any spectator might find "art" in the experience. In contrast, the story told might be of monsters and a magic trick
used to defeat it. As allegory to other hidden fears this might be art for some observers.

Just my opinion, but the "art experience" comes from the entire package: expectations, familiarity with props, music, body language, timing of anticipation and surprise -- and "patter" along with audience enthusiasm, setting and amount of distractions. Within the focused attention of a presentation the observer is NOT suspending disbelief. It is real at that moment. The observer is not an "Actor pretending to be a spectator." Yes, patter can be part of setting that gains the attention and focus -- and creates false anticipation. This can led to astonishment with various immediate and delayed reactions. Within this hidden fears are also real.

I used the term "jabberwock," tommy, because I feel your postings demonstrate some very real inner fears (different form mine). That has nothing to do with patter.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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On the whole, the audience is aware it is an illusion. An illusion is not a complete lie but is a distortion of the truth.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 22, 2017, tommy wrote:
On the whole, the audience is aware it is an illusion. An illusion is not a complete lie but is a distortion of the truth.



That is why it works. Most people's lives are distortions of the truth - perhaps more dilution than illusion.

A magic show tells them it is OK to be who they are.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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People are both emotional and rational creatures, both left and right thinking. Well-balanced people are not too emotional or too rational. Being too focused on the entertainment is being too emotional. Being too focused on the magic is being too rational. That is why we have the concept in magic called Speed in Presentation. In short, those fellows who are too left-brained rational do too many effects, while those too right brained emotional fellows do too few effects; one under dresses while the other over dresses the magic. To satisfy an audience it is best to give them an equal proportion of the emotional and rational elements. That is a well-balanced act of magic and patter, etcetera.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 22, 2017, funsway wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 22, 2017, tommy wrote:
On the whole, the audience is aware it is an illusion. An illusion is not a complete lie but is a distortion of the truth.



That is why it works. Most people's lives are distortions of the truth - perhaps more dilution than illusion.

A magic show tells them it is OK to be who they are.


Coming to my show with this expectation will lead to horrific disappointment.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 22, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Coming to my show with this expectation will lead to horrific disappointment.


Strange, I have never experienced "horrific disappointment" in any event in life. Probably can't afford your show any way Smile

Maybe that is why I chose not to become a performing magician as a career. I find people too interesting and derive something positive from every interaction, even the apparently terrible ones.

Arnold Furst (one of my mentors) said that I had the technical ability and the flair, but he doubted I could deal with the fear factor.
I have spent a lifetime trying to understand what he meant.

but neither disappointment or horror is part of it.

See Danny, I value your input because your experience with magic is much different from mine. How boring if different experiences resulted in the same views.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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Absolutely that is why I qualified my statements as not universal truths. Not by a long shot.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Doug Trouten
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Just ran across this quote from John Carney, which seems relevant to the original question:

"It has been argued that people of this day and age do not believe in magic. Nothing could be further from the truth. They only offer resistance to outdated myths, but new ones are constantly assimilated."
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett
funsway
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Like that
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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What charlatan wouldn’t like people to believe in magic?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Doug Trouten
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Tommy, I suppose it's a partly a question of what it means to "believe in magic." Do I want people to believe that I have supernatural powers that enable me to unerringly find aces in a shuffled deck of cards? Of course not. What a waste of supernatural power that would be. If I truly had the ability to work miracles, I'd devote my energies to healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and otherwise comforting the afflicted (as indeed I try to do with my mere mortal abilities).

But perhaps believing in magic could mean an openness to deeper truths concealed in surface deceptions. While it's trickery that lets me pluck aces out of deck, it's also true that what is lost can be found, that order can come out of chaos, and that seemingly impossible tasks may indeed be possible.

Ken's original question dealt with a change in our culture that has led to people having more and more vicarious experience -- which to some extent displaces actual experience. But it's still experience -- and it still shapes and informs our thoughts. We live in a very rich media environment, and the cost of that may be an impoverished experience with our unmediated environment -- but we're still people. We still experience love and hate, loneliness and friendship, frustration and joy, emptiness and fulfillment. To the extent that our magic touches people at that very human level, I believe it can be considered art.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett
tommy
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Superstitious beliefs persist in this old world of ours and nobody outside of a madhouse has ever argued that they do not. There are those who use magic to promote their superstitious faith and when they do so it can be a very toady thing. All normal art evokes the imagination, wonder if you will, of one sort or another. Art is not for informing like a technical drawing is but our art is not for preaching superstitious beliefs, is it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Doug Trouten
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Tommy, you seem to have charlatans and superstitious beliefs on the brain. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the OP's question.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett
tommy
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The OP asks “Is a magic performance even considered to be art today?”

Sometimes magic performances are not considered by me to be “Our Art”.

There are only two sorts of magic performances I can think of: charlatan magic and our magic.

Both are art. All art means is “By the arm of man” as to opposed to by nature which never lies.

We in our art do not pass magic off as natural but offer it as a lie, art, all art is a lie, therefore then Our Magic is appreciated as art.

When the charlatan passes his magic off as natural it is not appreciated as art.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Doug Trouten
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Thanks for clarifying. I see the connection you are making now.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett
Doug Trouten
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Just came across this from Punx -- it seemed relevant to the OP's question about magic and art.

"An artistically presented trick loses its characteristic of being a trick. It ceases to exist as an independent entity. The spectator will no longer think of the trick but of the event into which it is embedded. As long as the audience still concerns itself with figuring out "how," it is either an artistically unappreciative or illogical audience, or our drama was not breathtaking. The heart remained cold."

-- Punx (from "The amulet" in "Once Upon a Time")
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett
Doug Trouten
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Bill Palmer, the translator of "Once Upon a Time" by Punx, added a note about story magic for modern audiences that is also relevant to the OP's original musing about today's technology-addicted audiences. He wrote:

"Now four seconds is a long time. In commercials nowadays, it is not unusual to have new scenes change on a second-by-second basis. What does this mean to the magician? We have to keep our audience entranced. We cannot let spectators become bored. We must do things that will keep their attention. What will do this? There are several things: color, sound, movement, crisis, tension, humor and surprise. The more of these that you can work into your story, the better chance you will have of keeping the audience's attention. And the better job you do of keeping their attention, the better chance you have of entrancing them."
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
Terry Pratchett
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
nature which never lies.


Nature lies all the time. Tigers pretend to be harmless grass, snakes pretend to be leafs and foliage, butterflies pretend to be big scary monsters, bugs pretend to be sticks, plants pretend to be mates for bees - nature lies -constantly-. For all of the beauty of sunsets and thunderstorms, never forget that most of nature is trying to kill and eat you. So before you try to glorify nature as some epitome of honesty - remember that everything outside of humans would just as soon eat you as help you.

Magic is natural. It has to be. Magic has to subscribe to some kind of natural laws, even if we don't understand them at this time. At one point we had no idea what gravity was. But if magic exists, and I believe it does (although wildly misunderstood), then it must be governed by the laws of the universe in some way. Therefore, magic is natural, and we just don't understand it yet.

Most magicians spend way too much time trying to convince their audience that it doesn't exist for some reason or other. But there is magic in the universe. It only takes the ability to be comfortable with the idea of the possibility to rope people into that.
Christopher
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tommy
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What is a black cat black?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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Why is a black cat black?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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