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WitchDocChris
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Because genetics have shown that being able to hide in the shadows is advantageous. But surprise! You're not alone in that shadowy jungle, that shadow over there is actually a jaguar that's going to eat you. Another lie by nature.
Christopher
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tommy
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That is the trouble with kids today; they are so superficial it’s embarrassing. A black cat is black because it hunts at night. If you want to know the nature of the cat, look not at the cat, look instead at what the cat does.

Please try to have a little more insight if you are going to play a witch doctor. Smile


A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why - the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
WitchDocChris
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I am amused, though not remotely surprised, that you basically reworded my answer to be more pretentious and then tried to paint me as stupid.

But I expect no less from you. I suppose that's your nature.
Christopher
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tommy
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No! I did not say you were "stupid"; that is "you" rewarding of my words, as usual.

You are looking at the notion of "Nature never lies" in a superficial way, which does not make you "stupid" but simply unwise and misunderstanding what "Nature never lies" means. Note, there is no IMHO in that.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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You really ought to very grateful for the insightful lesson that taught you but if want to carry on looking at nature never lies in the superficial manner which you have been so far then that is your loss. As they say, we can only lead a horse to water but we cannot make it drink.

Now turning to your claim that magic is natural. I put it to you, that a magician performing our magic who leaves his audience thinking there might be something in it is a Charlatan.

Moreover, I ask, as I do not know, in the spirit of enquiry, is that what you in fact do?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 29, 2017, tommy wrote:
that a magician performing our magic who leaves his audience thinking there might be something in it is a Charlatan.



not true at all. Charlatan = "a person who claims to have skills or knowledge that the person does not actually have" and most definitions
include, "to harm" or "with fraudulent intent." You will have to find a different term to use. Please do not mangle this one.

you also say, "a magician" rather than "a person." If a person is know to be a magician of the performing type, than it is accepted that they will use artifice and deception to entertain.

Now, if we allow that that the term "magician" and "magic" can mean anything the observer desires, then many politicians are magicians and charlatans --
certainly claiming skills knowledge they do not have for the purpose of harming folks.

One reason Mentalists wish to distance themselves from "magician" is that many DO wish to leave the idea that they have special skill or knowledge. They could be viewed as charlatans,
but (for me) folks paying to see a Mentalist are only seeking to confirm "believed things" they already support. If the "for entertainment" cover shifts to after hours readings for pay, etc, it could be another matter.

But, drifting through posts above is the thought that some magic exists in some form and the performer/claimer just reveals it or accentuates it. (my interpretation) If true, then the performer is not making a 'false" claim
and in not a charlatan even if the intent or result is harmful. And the fact that an observer might place the label "magic" on what they see does not extend to inferring "fraudulent intent" on the part of the performer.

So, tommy, some of the opinions you offer have some validity -- at least for the purpose of inquiry;
but little is gained by redefining words or trying to leave an impression you have knowledge that you do not have.

Your last post asked another to describe what they actually do with regards to "natural magic." Are you going to do the same? What experience do you claim to support your opinions?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:

Therefore, magic is natural, and we just don't understand it yet.


Wading in on the other side. There was a time at which the term "magic" as "inexplicable phenomenon" had substance. Today the term has been so mangled by Hollywood, marketers and religion that using it in any argument is non-communicative.

Yes, there are things happening in the universe that we do not fully understand (or wrongly interpret). Some folks might use knowledge of this to fool, entertain, control or defraud people. That is "natural" too (people animals also).
But, the moment the cause is known or can be repeated with confidence it is not "magic." It is science for that person. In this sense, for something to be "natural" means it cannot be magic.

I am interested in learning more of your views, but doubt that this is a good "forum." It seems "natural" for tommy to post opinions as facts, though his motives are not always clear.
Thus, little can be gained by discussions of whose tiger can better hide in the grass.

To clarify my view here, anyone claiming to have a special ability is not being a magician - they are claiming to be a scientist with special knowledge.
What they do is not magic - it is a demonstration of science. Others may observe and apply the term "magic" but that does not make it so.

In the OP I questioned whether any of this is "art?" Yet, since it provokes emotional response, perhaps even bad pretended magic is art.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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“The modern magician does not deceive his spectators-that is to say, the legitimate magician. The modern charlatan, of course, has no more conscience than his predecessors. He will deceive anybody who will give him the chance, and he will try to deceive even those who don't; just to make sure of missing no possible opening for chicanery. He and the legitimate magician, however, are as far apart as the poles, in aim and procedure. A legitimate magician never deludes his audiences as to the character of his performance. He makes no claim to the possession of powers beyond the scope of physical science. Neither does he, while rejecting the suggestio falsi, substitute in its place the suppressio veri. That method is one frequently adopted by charlatans in magic. The latter gentry often refrain from committing themselves to any definite statement on the subject of their powers. In effect, they say to their spectators, "We leave you to decide upon the nature of our feats. If you can explain the methods we employ, you will know that what we do is not miraculous. If, on the other hand, you cannot explain our methods you will, of course, know that we have the power to work miracles."

Since the majority of people attending public performances cannot explain the simplest devices used in magic, it is scarcely likely that persons of such limited capability will arrive at any satisfactory explanation of processes involving even a moderate degree of complexity. Consequently, the mere reticence of the charlatan suffices to convince many people that "there is something in it." So there is, no doubt; but, usually, not much-certainly, nothing such as the innocent dupe conceives.

The distinguishing characteristic of a legitimate magician is his straightforwardness. He makes no false pretences, either by suggestion, implication, or reticence. This present treatise of course, relates only to legitimate magic; and, therefore, our definition of the term is limited to misdirection of the senses, exclusively. We have nothing to do with fraudulent or semi-fraudulent deceptions of intelligence, as practised by unscrupulous adventurers.”

Our Magic The Art in Magic - The Theory of Magic

by Nevil Maskelyne circa 1911
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Jun 30, 2017, tommy wrote:
“The modern magician does not deceive his spectators-that is to say, the legitimate magician. The modern charlatan, of course, has no more conscience than his predecessors. He will deceive anybody who will give him the chance, and he will try to deceive even those who don't; just to make sure of missing no possible opening for chicanery. He and the legitimate magician, however, are as far apart as the poles, in aim and procedure. A legitimate magician never deludes his audiences as to the character of his performance. He makes no claim to the possession of powers beyond the scope of physical science. Neither does he, while rejecting the suggestio falsi, substitute in its place the suppressio veri. That method is one frequently adopted by charlatans in magic. The latter gentry often refrain from committing themselves to any definite statement on the subject of their powers. In effect, they say to their spectators, "We leave you to decide upon the nature of our feats. If you can explain the methods we employ, you will know that what we do is not miraculous. If, on the other hand, you cannot explain our methods you will, of course, know that we have the power to work miracles."

Since the majority of people attending public performances cannot explain the simplest devices used in magic, it is scarcely likely that persons of such limited capability will arrive at any satisfactory explanation of processes involving even a moderate degree of complexity. Consequently, the mere reticence of the charlatan suffices to convince many people that "there is something in it." So there is, no doubt; but, usually, not much-certainly, nothing such as the innocent dupe conceives.

The distinguishing characteristic of a legitimate magician is his straightforwardness. He makes no false pretences, either by suggestion, implication, or reticence. This present treatise of course, relates only to legitimate magic; and, therefore, our definition of the term is limited to misdirection of the senses, exclusively. We have nothing to do with fraudulent or semi-fraudulent deceptions of intelligence, as practised by unscrupulous adventurers.”

Our Magic The Art in Magic - The Theory of Magic

by Nevil Maskelyne circa 1911


I can't imagine a better statement on the nature of "Our Magic." What is important about making such a distinction is not primarily for me about the moral imperative, it is that the rules for successful Charlatanry are different than for Our Magic. If you don't make such distinctions in form and aims, you cannot with clarity analyze your methods.

Ken likes to conflate meanings of terms in order to justify his shamanistic charlatanry. He confuses faking the impossible with the ability to actually accomplish the impossible. I think everyone would get a clearer view of things if Ken would simply describe how he uses magic in his consultations. I have no problem with what he does, just that I believe it is unhelpful to try to criticize the rules of Our Magic by saying that they don't account for something that is as outside of Our Magic as Cold Reading, Card Cheating, and Pick Pocketing.
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 30, 2017, Pop Haydn wrote:

Ken likes to conflate meanings of terms in order to justify his shamanistic charlatanry. He confuses faking the impossible with the ability to actually accomplish the impossible. I think everyone would get a clearer view of things if Ken would simply describe how he uses magic in his consultations. I have no problem with what he does, just that I believe it is unhelpful to try to criticize the rules of Our Magic by saying that they don't account for something that is as outside of Our Magic as Cold Reading, Card Cheating, and Pick Pocketing.


Whit, I defy you to show where I have every alluded to "shamanistic" activities in what I have done -- or that I have ever engaged in charlatanry. Such comments are probably slanderous.

Please provide evidence that I have misrepresented what I do, done anything fraudulent or ever claim any skills I do not have? Prove it or quit your false claims.

Then you attempt to say what I think and are wrong again. I am beginning to wonder if you have ever actually read anything I have ever written.

Card cheating? Pick Pocketing" Where do you get this stuff? And where does posting a dictionary definition "conflate" anything?
I objected to tommy misusing the term - that is all.

and just where do I "Criticize the rules of Our Magic?" "Rules" Why are these century old writings "Rules?"

You apparently have a great problem with what I have done -- but don't even know what it is. What a joke!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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We can only assume that you practice what you preach.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 30, 2017, tommy wrote:
We can only assume that you practice what you preach.


True statements, words as defined in a dictionary, appreciating of performance magic good and bad, and reasoned discourse over emotional attack?

Yes, I advocate such things and live by them. No need to ever assume anything, tommy. Just read.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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No, you have chosen to be a Shaman. Now prove it!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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On Jun 30, 2017, tommy wrote:
No, you have chosen to be a Shaman. Now prove it!



Nope - never claimed to be a shaman. Nice try - make up something else. Not sure anyone choses to be a shaman anyway.

by the way, do you have anything to contribute to the theme of this tread?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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Quote:
On Mar 13, 2017, funsway wrote:
Something I wrote a couple of years ago.


A Circle of Adroit Enchantment

A philosophy.
Every person is pulled by two opposing forces: recognition of their spiritual nature and the demands of their human frailties. It has always been so. Shaman filled a need to assist people in finding a balance between these two. They would take a person or group through a process of focus and introspection to lead the Seeker to a new balance of perceptions and a self-chosen course of action “from their own mouth.” They would use stories and small magic effects to develop trust and diminish fears. In such a divination process they might employ symbols and objects as allegory to the internal decision making process.

In modern times this role has been split into areas of alleged expertise such as psychologist, priest, financial analyst, teacher and tax accountant. Each of these use a form of Q&A to perform a divination process to help the Seeker find a greater balance. Unfortunately, the motivation of the “seer” is often clouded by personal agendas that focus more on “I’ll tell you what to do” rather than “let’s strip these problems down to truths, change some perspectives and jointly forge a new plan and basis for confident and incisive choices.” This has led to the individual forgetting or denying essential responsibility for their actions and master of their future potential. The modern tendency is to attempt to take credit for what works and find someone else to blame if it does not. This will lead to spiraling de-evolution of our culture. In short, we have forgotten what got us to this point of being in charge of our own future.

On the human side we are not meant to act alone. Everything we desire or need requires the involvement of other people. The greatest obstacle to “having things our way” is that every other person is also trying to have things their way. We are all in competition for scarce resources of materials, time and energy. One approach is to steal from others. Another is to cooperate with others for mutual benefit. We can attempt to use power to force others to meet our needs or use persuasion to influence their decisions. We can also align ourselves with others of apparent common needs and desires and pretend we are cooperating while still playing some manipulative game. All of this requires communication of some sort.
Before language and its *** children written word, dogma and prejudice, people communicated in ways we do not fully understand. We can affirm that early man had ways of communicating that we do not have, or have forgotten. One might view these abilities as innate skills, tribal memory, instinct or even DNA based empathy. Regardless, each person with whom we communicate might have a more heightened degree of adroitness than we do. They might “remember better.” This can be a barrier to establishing trust and essential presence. It can also be a lynch-pin in a communication process of mutual benefit.

Comes a magician.

All of the modern derivatives of the Shaman role are based on “believing” rather then “knowing.” Our internal process of decision making are based on degrees of certainty and convictions usually plunked there by someone else. The concept of certitude and transition learning is being destroyed by vicarious experience and non-interpersonal communication. The accelerating shift from a work-based modality to an entertainment modality is a denial of personal responsibility. People are now in greater need for Shaman than ever before but have been trained to trust the charlatan over the seer. What little they do allow as an influence of changing perceptions is in a theater setting. They observe other people acting out skits in which problems and fears similar to their own are challenged and conquered. Every person desires a greater say over their future options. By observing how “no risk” actors handle situations they can extract either inspiration or courage to face their own problems. Unfortunately, they also learn how to play the “blame game.” This is easier than actually changing one’s values or perceptions. The result is that most people have numerous persona and avatars and convoluted webs of lies and deceptions that destroy both communication and self-actualization.

So, enters a person who will play act challenging the impossible or non-possible or not-possible. They perform skits with physical objects or limitations of mind to fictionally and allegorically challenge perceptions and fears of the observer to provide hope that one can be “more than they are.” When the demonstrations become too intense and fear might outweigh excitement and hope, the performer provides a wink or a reminder that it is all just a skit. But there is a profound difference between what the magician (conjuror or mentalist) pretends at and what an actor in a sitcom pretends at. The latter plays at “what to do” or even “how to do.” The magician plays at “why to do” or “why not to do.” The magician also “tells the truth” – may be the only person in a spectator’s life that does. He tells the seeker exactly what he is going to do and then always does what he says. This is the basis of integrity that the seeker lacks. It doesn’t matter that the demonstration is physically impossible, or that it demonstrates a mental ability considered to be “other than normal.” That is the “effect” of challenge the impossible and coming away unscathed. More important is the “affect” of demonstrating that a lonely person can overcome personal fears, practice, focus and offer hope that any person can challenge their own fears and gain a greater say over their future options.

The performing magician is closer to an ancient Shaman than any other mentor available to the seeker. This “mantel of expectations” of the observer places a responsibility on the magician that most mangle, abuse or deny. The tragedy is that the conjuror or mentalist DOES have the ability to overcome the impossible, but fritters it away on egoic !@#$%^&*()_+ or other form of hubris. They fight with their peers over terms like “magician” or “psychic.” They attack anyone who holds a view other than their own. They pretend that their audience is stupid, gullible, soulless and “less able” than they. What a waste!

So what?

You may accept some of this philosophy or none. This does not matter. If you have been taken to the core of your own beliefs and values and certainty and gained some clarity it is enough. In designing a mentalism effect or routine you must be absolutely clear on what you are attempting to accomplish, what are the expectations of the seekers before you, and acceptance of the knowledge that you are in a unique position to change a person’s life.

There is ancient intellectual challenge. You meet a stranger on a mountain path. He has knowledge of value to you since he comes from where you must go. You likewise have knowledge that could be of value to him. You have a brief opportunity to establish the trust and respect to support truthful communication. A single chance! What do you do? Tell a story? Sing an emotional song? Ask banal questions? Do a magic trick? Beat him up? Prove your superiority in some manner? Bribe him?

Yeah, I know the answer. You will say, “I have 3000 friends on YouTube.”

No, you have chosen to be a Shaman. Now prove it!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
remember that everything outside of humans would just as soon eat you as help you.


Cliche anthropocentric human arrogance. There goes a man assuming everyone sees him as a gourmet dish again when, truth be told, those "things" don't appear to find humans even half that appetizing and if they ate you, so what? We all gotta eat. Where's the dishonesty in that? Animals make no bones about it. They live in harmony, they find ways to make a living- and when take a meal they appreciate it rather than assuming a condescending attitude of scorn and contempt the way humans so often do.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
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tommy
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Have you ever alluded to "shamanistic" activities and do you advocate such things and live by them and by the way, Ken, do you have anything more to contribute to your theme?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 1, 2017, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 28, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
remember that everything outside of humans would just as soon eat you as help you.


Cliche anthropocentric human arrogance. There goes a man assuming everyone sees him as a gourmet dish again when, truth be told, those "things" don't appear to find humans even half that appetizing and if they ate you, so what? We all gotta eat. Where's the dishonesty in that? Animals make no bones about it. They live in harmony, they find ways to make a living- and when take a meal they appreciate it rather than assuming a condescending attitude of scorn and contempt the way humans so often do.


This thread is getting hilarious.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 1, 2017, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 28, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
remember that everything outside of humans would just as soon eat you as help you.


Cliche anthropocentric human arrogance. There goes a man assuming everyone sees him as a gourmet dish again when, truth be told, those "things" don't appear to find humans even half that appetizing and if they ate you, so what? We all gotta eat. Where's the dishonesty in that? Animals make no bones about it. They live in harmony, they find ways to make a living- and when take a meal they appreciate it rather than assuming a condescending attitude of scorn and contempt the way humans so often do.


This thread is getting hilarious. Every time I think it can't get more ridiculous and pretentious it manages to go even further.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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I wonder, does the lie through its appearances present nothing but an evolution of a lie, from its origin to its end, the end being, a return to its cause and will this desire of mine to comprehend the transcendent levels of reality through concrete phenomena remain a hallmark of my earliest experiences?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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