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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Sitting back and watching how many are approaching the business aspects of performing in recent years and even the shift here in Tricky Business over just 4-5 years ago and lack of newer performers wanting to follow the dream of pursuing performing for income or a profession, just reinforces the reality that today many newcomers are attracted to magic or mentlaism (and even hypnosis) only to find the secrets or to be "able to do something cool" (or something they say on America's Got Talent). They have little interest in actually performing (outside of friends and maybe family), learning the art and even less interest in utilizing these arts as a career or source of income or security.
Tricky Business used to always be filled with wide-eyed and open-eared newcomers wanting to learn and absorb as much as they could here from those who have achieved or are doing what they aspire to. This is definitely a generational shift and should be both of interest and concerning to our arts and industry. |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
Mindpro,
I could be totally wrong about this, but I've always been under the impression that the newer generation wants to learn how to book their shows FIRST before buying props or watching a few DVD's. Learning the art doesn't even factor into the equation. Could it be a generation Y thing? Again, this is just my jaded view of where we are today. Gerry |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Magic is a huge hobby for the young and the internet has made it possible for them to be seen/heard and that has probably made magic even bigger.
Of course it has always been the hobby that keeps magic alive anyway. There would be no magic shops if it weren’t for the hobbyist. And the hobbyist is out there creating magic lovers amongst friends and family. Promoting magic on all levels is good for the professional. Much like little league baseball helps create lifetime fans for the big leagues. So the next time you see an amateur magician dropping cards all over the floor, thank them for what they do. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
I think a couple things could be at play here.
1) Younger magicians aren't really going to be on the Café, I bet. Forums are not super popular in general any more. Young magicians are on Facebook, Instagram, Reddit - not this clunky, ugly beast. 2) Regarding being a professional performer: People who are in their mid-thirties and younger are often struggling financially. At least in the US. Getting established as a performer is hard work, and does not guarantee a paycheck. For a whole swatch of the population, they need to know they can make X amount to pay student loans, rent, etc. I would not be surprised at all if they generally preferred to perform magic casually as a way to relax, but keep a steady job to make sure they can pay rent. I really don't think it's an issue, though. As already said, hobbyists develop the art as well (if not more) than the professionals. Hobbyists have the leisure to explore, whereas the professional has to book the gig.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Phil Pearce Loyal user Dallas, GA 260 Posts |
Insightful, Doc.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Some interesting thoughts for sure. I think this, as it pertains to today's generations is really much more of the bigger picture. I've even noticed that guys under 40 often think they "get it" yet they too are also on the cusp of the starting of the shift.
I feel it really goes back to live entertainment itself. For baby boomers and yuppies and generations before we were raised on live entertainment. Other than the three basic T.V. networks with cartoons, kids shows and family shows, all we had was live entertainment. The circus, fairs, festivals, magic and puppet shows at schools, dances and soc hops, and so on. We saw concerts, magic shows, animal shows, our live music was bands not DJs (everyone wanted to play guitar or drums), theatrical plays, standup comedy, clowns were in parades and at family events and kid parties, and of course there was a variety of storytellers, jugglers, plate spinners, dog acts, tumbling expositions and other variety acts. We saw these and immediately thought how cool it would be to be a performer. A whole generation still talks about first seeing the Beatles on Ed Sullivan, that one night inspired so many guitar payers and teen bands. To this generation it was as significant as "where were you when you heard JFK was assinated?" Bozo made many want to be a clown, Howdy Doody made you want to be a puppeteer, and of course every boy that saw a magician, for at least a moment, thought about being a magician. It touched people deeper, it inspired them, and often made it clear to many that that was going to be what they wanted to do. "I want to be a (insert your type of entertainer here)". This was practical and more real than younger thoughts of wanting to be a cowboy or Superman. This was possible. It spoke directly to you and was your calling for many of us, accepting nothing less. We were driven. People would save their allowances, birthday money, holiday gifts and money to pursue this interest. It was balls out at all costs. And everyone knew it - parents, siblings, grandparents, everyone at school, scouts, and in the neighborhood. People watched your progress and supported your interests. Live entertainment was exciting, interesting and of a elevated status. Something you strived for. Today, this doesn't happen the same. Today's (and the last three generations) experienced entertainment differently. Electronic entertainment, video games, disc jockeys, virtual and synthetic entertainment has replaced live entertainment. The last few generations often don't even know how to act or proper etiquette when they do attend a live entertainment event. This is when the greater shift actually occurred. Because of this I have consistently found that when you talk to guys in their 30 or younger, they think they understand what you mean when you speak of your performing, talent or live entertainment, but they really don't. They only understand on the reduced and watered-down level of these generations. What they think they know and feel about live entertainment and performing is not the same at all. I know he doesn't post here much, but when I read the posts of Dick Oslund for example, I get the level, intensity and depth of what he is expressing. Too bad it is often missed by many here, which is such a shame. Even when talking to today's working professionals, it isn't the same either. Yes, they are working pros, but again often lacking the depth (many of them) that previous generations of performers had and lived every hour of every day 24/7. Today's generations are actually physically lazy. They would rather think their way to any kind of living of perceived success, rather than physically doing so. If they can, good for them. Their definition of success is different, so therefore too is their drive, beliefs and approach. Fewer today see a performance and get inspired, motivated and driven to not only want to do that, but to learn to do it right, though the proper process and come up through the ranks. (They actually will watch a youtube performance and think they experienced the performance. Not at all the same thing as actually experiencing it live. They are missing so much here, yet will never believe this). Instead they fantasize about being a big shot in the ranks without having to physically working it. As a recent example I recently has a guy inquiring to be a coaching student of mine who actually put on the application that he wanted to "be a mentalist for a living, but only rarely perform like Peter Turner", I could only laugh. I think the "shift" here I originally mentioned in my first post is a byproduct of this greater shift. In reality this greater shift is a big component in understanding how entertainment business operates in today's marketplace and the expectations of prospective clients, as well as today's performers perspectives, mentalities and approaches. |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Interesting topic and conversation. I agree that exposure to live entertainment is a huge contributing factor to developing a deeper interest. I recall as a small kid my family seeking out live magic, circus, carnival, musical, animal acts. We saw The Dazling Mills Family at a small county fair (3 shows) when their boy was 7 (I was 5 at the time). He was riding a unicycle and juggling. My dad (who could do neither of these) promised me that he would get me a unicycle and teach me to juggle when I turned 7. He followed through on his promise, and it was a motivating factor in me learning how to transition these skills towards entertaining others. Even since that time, which is less than twenty years ago, there seems to be fewer opportunities to see such forms of live entertainment.
With regard to other aspects of the topic, I too have seen far fewer young people participate here, even since I joined about 6 years ago. Actually, there are fewer contributors over all. I'm not sure if it is so much differing forms of social media, as I still find this format to be most suited to discussion. I think many left here (more experienced performers) due to the rules we are asked to follow. If so, I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing that they left. I do think those of us who are younger have a lot to gain by joining in on discussions and asking questions. |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 10, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Other than those wide-eyed newcomers shifting over to Facebook/Insta etc, I just can't imagine why anyone would want to avoid the Tricky Business section. |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
Robert,
Don't worry, they always come back here when they have a new product to sell. |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 16, 2017, charliecheckers wrote: Steve Mills, his wife, and I toured for several different school assembly bureaus, back in the '70s. I have lost touch, and don't know if he is still performing. His parents were from Ohio, but, I don't remember what city. His younger brother also played schools.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 16, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Lazy? And you're calling us out of touch. People who are in their thirties and below are busting their ass to scrape by in an economy that doesn't give two sh*** about them. The business model has changed. What interests people in my generation and younger isn't what interested people who are older than us. Perhaps it's not us that are out of touch? Maybe it's that the entire industry is shifting and some people just aren't adapting? Everyone I know likes live entertainment. We're just not that interested in dropping $90 a ticket for nosebleed seats to see David Copperfield. We like intimate shows. We like local microbrew beers, and farm-to-table food, and local artists. When I was a kid I didn't go to much live entertainment. We couldn't really afford it and honestly, it usually kind of sucked. I was not inspired to be a magician when I first saw one - I thought he was treating us like morons who couldn't tell he had a wire behind that floating ball. Grand illusion bores me and that was what "magic" was in the 80s and 90s. The first show to "inspire" me was Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants. A show I still watch to this day. And I saw on it on TV. So maybe it's not that we're just ignorant to the depth of the previous generation's experience, maybe it's that the previous generation is so out of touch with the current generation they can't hold our interest? I mean, how can anyone expect me to spend a thousand dollars on their business course if they can't prove that it will definitely pay off, and soon? I've got a mortgage to pay, a full time job, and regular performances/gig hounding. Considering I like having friends and sleeping on occasion, where exactly am I supposed to fit in this revolutionary system? Word of mouth is my primary advertising and marketing model. Of all of the advice I've heard, or read from these forums and others - none of it has ever helped me much. I'm sure if I took the plunge to be a performer full time it would be helpful! But I can't do that. I cannot risk a slow month at this point. So I'm building my reputation my way, and yes, I ignore many of the people out there who are trying to help me. It's not that I don't respect them, their advice, their experience, etc. it's that it just hasn't had any results in my situation. Quote:
On Jul 16, 2017, RobertSmith wrote: Same reason they avoid any part of the Café - the tendency to be attacked for being new or having an opinion that isn't in line with what the established posters say. I mean, who wouldn't want to hang out with a group of guys that constantly call them stupid, lazy, or say that they just can't comprehend their advice?
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Exactly as I said.
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
And thank you for proving my point as well.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
This is interesting to me. Usually it is younger people not getting it. Usually they think they are the first generation to experience "X". Usually they are quite wrong.
But often it is those who have been around that see things as if it is the first time "Y" has happened. Almost without fail every generation had the person/people who will ruin the children. From Dance band music, to Elvis to The Beatles, to Madonna and Ozzy, to Lady GaGa and so it goes. All thought it was the first time for such a thing and all were wrong. Heck the entire musical The Music Man is sort of based on the concept! It had been around so long that it was old enough to be entrenched in society back then is how long this has gone on. Is the "new generation" lazy? Hard to assign that to EVERYONE. (In my experience as a rule everyone seems more "easily offended" but that is perception bias I am sure.) But what is to be expected? So much changes so quickly that things maybe just seem this way but perhaps are not. I mean for God sake almost all the paths that brought me to where I am not have been closed. How can I expect anyone to share my beliefs and experience, without the ability to experience that? It is not possible. As things change, things change! Not a bad thing, not a good thing, just a thing. I think we need to accept and embrace it and move forward.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
...Which was the entire point of the original post! Just pointing out the obvious but with acknowledging and understanding.
I may add that this generation also seems to have a problem with accepting criticism and immediately claiming the are being attacked, bullied or treated unfairly. They believe their industry-related opinions are equal and valid to those with longtime experience. They're not the same. Criticism has always been around, but most before have used it to learn, be motivated, become inspired to understand and do better and evolve. Not complain and start flinging and attacking as if a victim. What is absolutely crazy to me is let's just say for the benefit of the doubt this WAS true - they were being attacked and treated unfairly - then why on earth would you keep coming back for more of the same? You have the opportunity to leave. In a true bully situation that is rarely the case or it wouldn't exist. That's why there is little merit to this claim. Same for the above posts - if this place offers nothing for you guys, and you have never learned or taken anything from here - why do you keep coming back? It's crazy. You have taken a very simple and innocent post about the shift in generations as it pertains to the Café and the industry and twisted it into something it is not or intended to be. It isn't an attack it a simple statement that is a fact. I pride myself in following entertainment industry trends for five decades now. In reality I attribute most of my success in all my entertainment businesses to this. My observations on this have been written about in many industry publications and associations and spoken about live at industry events. It is what it is. However, one can not benefit from it until it is understood. When I do therapy with someone the first thing I tell them is "you can change what you don't acknowledge." This wasn't personal, it wasn't an attack, it is the reality of what it is. As it pertains to the Café numbers are down across the board. New membership, post counts, traffic in individual forums, participation, etc. Comparing it to facebook groups is goofy as well, as like Gerry said, they all come back here eventually or drop out. I challenge any facebook group to have the overall community knowledge and contributing insight AND the vast archives of many years. This is why I decline every FB group that has asked me to participate or govern. Don't compare kumquats to watermelons. Many of these FB groups are even more agenda-based than here, as things get much worse due to lack of governing and the separation of fact from opinion. No thanks. Enjoy you FB groups, but let's not confuse them with the benefits of community and industry forums. Two different things. Rather than be offended at the point of "lazy", rather than get all defensive and bruised, why not try to comprehend it and understand why? The "why" is where results and understanding occur. |
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G. Batson Regular user 147 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 17, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote: Great point. The OP makes a faulty assumption that the "shift" is a problem and should be concerning. Maybe because its not what he would like to see. Ridiculous! It is what it is, as he says, doesn't automaticly mean its a problem. |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 17, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote: Oops. 800lb gorilla alert. This is it. First, as was mentioned, yes, Facebook, Insta etc have crushed the internet forum models. No question. But this? This is the reason. I've been at the fair business now since 2004 when Dean first brought me to the Nevada State Fair. Started sharing my knowledge this year after cutting my teeth for may years. Basically rebuffed, criticized, told why I was wrong. All by people who have no real history in the market and no real understanding of, or even execution in digital marketing. That's why I quit posting my updates. Has nothing to do with a "generational shift." Has to do with the fact that two or three members are absolute jerks. With one of them being guarded by the Café management as some sort of sacred cow. |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 17, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote: *chomps popcorn* |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 17, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Which publications? I'd love to go back and review those observations. And are they under your real identity? Or your "anonymous" identity here at the Café? Quote:
"Mindpro" wrote: You would think someone with such a vast knowledge, who shares so much here where there is little attention, would gravitate towards Facebook. I mean, Facebook would provide you with an opportunity to post pictures of yourself, videos from your performances and ed sessions/talks/lectures. It would give you a chance to put real credibility behind your observations. Yet you choose to stay here in the anonymity of this place. Huh. That just doesn't make sense to me. Quote:
Mindpro wrote: If you decline every FB group that asked you to participate or govern, how do you know "many" of them are even more agenda-based than here? How would you know things get much worse due to the lack of governing? How could you possibly know that if you decline every invitation? |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
The OP speaks to changes in the industry of live entertainment as it pertains to the resulting mind sets of younger people. I think this can be informative to recognize and understand in order to make appropriate forward planning. This is no different than navigating changes that occur in any industry. The sooner one can understand what exactly is changing and why, the better they can respond in a positive way. In reading the post, the way I saw it is- if one is willing to put in the appropriate work and do so in a structured way, there will be less competition operating on the same level as there used to be. It also looks like one might be better pursuing niche markets, if indeed the market for live entertainment continues to be reduced from what it once was. Perhaps a good example of this would be to look at how the Circus (with relatively low ticket prices) is now all but gone and Cirque shows evolved charging many times more.
Regarding the thread discussion of generational decline in general, and specifically Danny's point that each generation had a entertainer that was going to "ruin children" and "all were wrong" - is a different, yet related conversation. Fair to say though, that based upon a number of statistics, the moral decay that those generations warned of has come to pass and the only thing that makes it seem as though they perhaps were not correct is redefining normal and moral behavior. What caused those changes is of course debatable and from many factors. |
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