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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Cups and balls; final loads, are they really necessary? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dave V
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Quote:
On 2004-04-10 01:30, Pete Biro wrote:
I once used Final Unloads.

For magicians, I did a basic routine and flashed loading jumbo balls under the cups.

Then, when I lifted the cups there was NOTHING THERE.

I just read about David Williamson's Final Load in Michael Ammar's Cups and Balls book. Similar concept, he flashed the loads (don't worry, it was for a magician's convention) and when he lifted the cups they were gone. Puzzled, he went to his briefcase, then announced "Here they are!" as he dumped an entire case load of lemons on the table.
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shanla
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Sometimes the impact of final big load makes people forget the sequence of the small balls. A few days after the performance, friends may call the cups & balls routine "The trick where you procuce lemons". They won't call it cups & balls.

If the sequence of the balls is good enough, I think the final load is not always necessary.

One of the most beautiful cups & balls routine I think is Ross Bertram's one. I saw his performance in L&L's video, there is no final load in that routine.
It is so beautifuly constructed that the sequense of the small balls attracts the people.

Of course I think the final loads gets huge reaction from the audience and I myself always use them.
But again, I think the final load is not always necessary.


Tomoo
RobertBloor
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Tomoo: Sometimes the impact of final big load makes people forget the sequence of the small balls. A few days after the performance, friends may call the cups & balls routine "The trick where you produce lemons". They won't call it cups & balls.

And...this affects the presentation negatively...how?

I think a lot of magicians REALLY want the spectator to care as much about their moves, sleights, and double-undercut-pass over-double lift move as the magician does.

Spectators will never care as much about your two-none-two sequence, or Charlie Miller move as you the magician does.

Quote:
MJ Marrs: Come to think of it, you don't even need the table. It's called "The Cups and Balls Without the Cups,Balls or the Final Loads." I'll have a detailed DVD titled "The Minimalist's Approach to a Classic" on sale in about a month or so. Wand sold separately!

I'm glad you got rid of the table because if I wanted to do Cups and Balls in a restaurant without the cups and balls, you know it's debated whether to use a table. So you just solved a big headache!

Cheers!

Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence
Bill Hegbli
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Quote:
On 2004-04-14 23:46, shanla wrote:
Sometimes the impact of final big load makes people forget the sequence of the small balls. A few days after the performance, friends may call the cups & balls routine "The trick where you produce lemons". They won't call it cups & balls.

Tomoo

So shouldn't that tell you something. In todays fast changing attention spans, get to the climax. If you are performing for the real world. Get to the climax before the audience moves on.

Magicians are the only ones that will sit through a long ball presentation and appreciate your long hours of practice and skill.

When it comes to the people that pay you, you do what they want, not what you want. Of course that is why Chop Cup is so popular.
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chrisrkline
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Of course, the Chop Cup was popular before TV, MTV, video games, and the like ruined our attention spans.

I think most of us will agree that it is possible to do a great cup and balls routine without the final loads, but most magicians do a final load. If you are new to the whole routine, you will probably pick up a resource, like Ammar's Complete C&Bs and learn a final load, but you should not be afraid to investigate different approaches. It also would not hurt for many of us to concentrate on our small ball routines and make sure that we can do credible vanishes and that the routine is powerful. I can't speak about any other relatively new magicians, but I know I spend most of my time accessing the small ball part of the routine--making sure I do a decent vanish, that I build up tension and that there is a point to what I am doing (at least as much of a point one can possible have with having people watch me fiddle with three copper cups. Smile )

(Quick note to those with little sense of humor--I am not really fiddling, that's just a phrase--I take this all seriously. When I am done with my C&B's, nobody gets out of the room until they can answer 20 questions outlining their understanding of every aspect and purpose of my routine--and if any of them like the final loads best, then back to the drawing board.) Smile
Chris
RobertBloor
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Quote:
Chris: nobody gets out of the room until they can answer 20 questions outlining their understanding of every aspect and purpose of my routine


I find the standardized testing methods with 30 questions or more to be better. ;-)
Quote:
Bill: Magicians are the only ones that will sit through a long ball presentation and appreciate your long hours of practice and skill.

God bless you for this comment.
And funny isn't it...I've never seen a magician applaud when the final loads are revealed.

Cheers!
Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence
Jonathan Townsend
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Re: "Magicians are the only ones that will sit through a long ball presentation and appreciate your long hours of practice and skill. "

Some final loads do get a reaction from magicians. Eric Decamps has one.

Folks are there to be entertained... and truly should not know if the means used are mechanical, sleight of hand or 'other'.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
shane_delon
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Quote:
On 2004-04-10 01:30, Pete Biro wrote:
I once used Final Unloads.

For magicians, I did a basic routine and flashed loading jumbo balls under the cups.

Then, when I lifted the cups there was NOTHING THERE.

David Williamson did this at Magi-fest.
Ronnie Ramin
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I worked very hard on my ball vanishes. I now have the technique down to the point where I fool laymen and audiences alike. I've been doing my vanish for at least 15 years. Every time I see Richard Hatch from H+R magic, he makes me do it Smile

Anyway, if your interested I'd be willing to share my technique. I've gotten so much from others in the past, it wouldn't hurt to give back.

Mickey Silver's generosity must be rubbing off.

Thanks,
Ronnie Ramin
cardman1990
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I love big loads, and for people with small hands, I would recommend you pick up Brad Burt's Chop Cup video, he has a great way of loading large things under cups.
John Cass
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Isn't whatever you produce from the cup last, by definition, the "final" load?
magic_tom1
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Has anyone here seen Bill Malone's presentation of final loads?? I didn't even think of doing it that way, and actually producing 4 loads.

Do you think that this is too many loads, and that it is pretty much "old" to the spectator after 2 or 3?

It is an interesting move, but I don't think I will ever use it.
Magic Tom
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chrisrkline
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Gazzo loads six lemons as a prelude to the melon under the hat. But he did say, without the melon, he would not do more than three final loads. He says it is counter productive and can actually cause the routine to lose its oomph. Vernon sometimes did three and sometimes four.
Chris
rawdawg
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Would this be considered a final load?

I borrow three dollars, crumple them up into little balls and perform an impromptu Cups & Balls routine. For the finale, I explain that I use extra dollars to pull off the "trick". Uncrumpling the balls, they are seen to be ten dollar bills. I give them back the money a la Jeff Hobson.

Concerning the discussion, would it not be more efficient to just walk up with a cup and produce a final load? It is simple, direct and to the point, all hallmarks of great magic. Plus, we could get rid of all those annoying little ball sequences. Too much practicing involved in doing something nobody pays for anyway.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
Ron Giesecke
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Quote:
On 2004-05-04 01:32, rawdawg wrote:
Would this be considered a final load?

I borrow three dollars, crumple them up into little balls and perform an impromptu Cups & Balls routine. For the finale, I explain that I use extra dollars to pull off the "trick". Uncrumpling the balls, they are seen to be ten dollar bills. I give them back the money a la Jeff Hobson.

That's a really interesting idea.
Curtis Kam
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Rawdawg,

Bill Goodman suggested a "final load only" routine in Genii, and requested feedback from the readers. I don't think there was much. I happen to like the idea quite a bit. His concept was to show the cup empty, then set the cup in the center of the table. He then would somehow force the audience to "freely" name a lemon. He would pick up the cup, and bingo, lemon.

I think it would have quite an impact, as long as the force is good.

Regarding the transformation of bills as a climax to the routine, I like the idea. David Regal's "Two in the Hand One in the Pocket" routine ends this way. Also, I published a routine in Apocalypse in which a dollar is torn in half to make tow balls, which are used in a cup routine, and then the bill is ultimately restored. A "change of state" rather than a big load. I hedged my bets back then, and used the restoration of the bill as misdirection for the big load.
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Magicmatt1982
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Quote:
On 2004-04-09 23:34, cajuninms wrote:
I am a 14 year old guy who has really small hands (can't even palm a card) and I need to know; Are the final loads really necessary, and if so what small loads could I use?
rawdawg
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Curtis,

I really like that Goodman concept. About as close as you can get to reaching into your pocket and taking out a ham sandwich on request. I can easily see this as one of those things that you keep in your bag of tricks for that special moment. I'm always tucking little bits of info away that I "get" on people and using it later some way, some how. Mostly I find out obscure, personal stuff that allows me to give them a very unexpected birthday present.

Allow me to run free for a moment.

Say I have this Tupperware bowl. It's adorned with cheap jewels, glitter, whatnot and it is proposed to be this old, ancient Cornucopia styled bowl that can bring forth all your desires. It's an heirloom, being in the family for several generations. Unfortunately, it's so old, it doesn't really work the way it's supposed to.

Ludicrous? Perfect.

So I keep this bowl with me and on occasion, bring it out and talk about. Of course, I would love to show everybody how it works but lately, it's been on the blink. I show a card trick instead.

Days or weeks pass and eventually (for example) one of my favorite bartender's birthday comes up. Unfortunately, she has to work on her birthday but she will be celebrating it at her bar with all her friends. I show up looking for my pint of Guinness and to my horror, I had completely forgotten about her party. I have no present and I apologize profusely. Of course she tells me it is okay, that just being here is present enough.

Wait a minute, I tell her, as light dawns upon my head. I have a wonderful idea. I rush out to my car and bring back my old, rickety Cornucopia like bowl. I will do a magic trick for her birthday. I hope it works.

What follows is a performance of the Benson Bowl Routine whereby I bang, curse, cajole and wish out loud in order for each phase to properly work. For the finale, I ask the Birthday Girl to wish for anything. Better yet, since my bowl is a little rusty, I ask her to remember all her wishes she's ever had in her entire life. Give the bowl a chance, I say.

Upon lifting the Bowl, everyone, including me is perplexed at what lies there. But the Birthday Girl isn't. She stands there privately amazed. She doesn't realize that maybe, just maybe, she, a close friend or a family member said something in passing, probably months ago that led to this moment. Maybe it was during a cold reading segment, a game of pool or in a drunken stupor at Denny's early in the morning. All she knows is that Ugly Bowl did it. It actually did it.

Weberesque? What do you think?

Sorry for the long post but I'm not one to get to the point.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2004-04-09 23:34, cajuninms wrote:
I am a 14 year old guy who has really small hands (can't even palm a card) and I need to know; Are the final loads really necessary, and if so what small loads could I use?

Re: small hands -- Gazzo regularly loads oranges, which are much larger than his hands, into the cups for final loads. You can load ANYTHING into the cup that will fit in there, if you have strong enough misdirection when you make the loads.

The hands don't need to be in full view all the time.

OTOH, you can get a set of Jim Riser's mini cups. They take a smaller ball, about the size of a handball. They will work fine.
"The Swatter"

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Pete Biro
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SIZE does NOT MATTER... it is the change from the small balls to something else.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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