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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Cups and balls; final loads, are they really necessary? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Han Solo
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Size matters not. Judge me by my size do you?
Kill da wabbit! Kill da wabbit!-Elmer Fudd
Jonathan Townsend
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The symmetry of the three cups to the three shell game all but forces the use of final loads to distinguish the trick. What's missing is a PLOT for the trick. Why do you have the cups and what are the balls?

IT all begins with a premise. Lacking that... what's left is something between tragedy and history.

I can't take a position of a routine that has no explicit premise or internal logic. There are some wonderful magical moments in the routine assembled by Vernon. Also in the routine created by Ramsay. Even more in the Tommy Wonder routine. Lots of METHOD and STRUCTURE to work with. All one needs is a premise to motivate the props and the action.

If the premise leads to a LARGE conclusion... good. If the routine builds to a climax of productions... good. There are posts about routines that take different approaches. If you want to discuss one option or approach or premise in particular we can proceed to commentary and opinions.

Till we have a working premise for the trick we may as well be arguing about why most people cite a rule of three and don't use two or four cups.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Curtis Kam
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same as you, plus 3 and enough to make
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Rawdawg,

I admire your dedication to the cause. (We'll ignore the obvious allure of a female who a) has a steady job and b) knows how you like your beer) Go, Do, and name your first child after the Café.

Funny premise. Perhaps the bowl is so old it's hard of hearing...hey, suppose you could produce 20 ducks?? (you know, "I said Bucks!")

Another "old bowl" line: "Well, now I know why they call it a Jello MOLD".

Here's my private fave handling for the Goldman idea. YOu start with the final load in the bowl. Covering all is a rag over the mouth-up bowl. Tip the opening of the bowl towards you, showing the ornate craftsmanship, and stealing the load behind the Rag. Now show the bowl empty, then wipe out the bowl with whatever lines you want, ending by loading the bowl using the Stencil load from the Jennings chop cup routine.

Use the rag for something else, maybe to wipe your hands in preparation for the miracle. Put it aside (over load #2) Produce the loads as needed.

With the original Goldman idea, this works well with a coffee cup and a paper napkin. The napkin is then used, with a sharpie, to force the load. BYFM since I don't have one.

BTW, if you want practice, Mother's Day is near, and this presentation (with a little tweaking) will please mom, don't you think?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
rawdawg
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Quote:
On 2004-05-07 05:37, Curtis Kam wrote:
BTW, if you want practice, Mother's Day is near, and this presentation (with a little tweaking) will please mom, don't you think?

Imagine her surprise when I lift up the bowl and she sees me married to a nice Thai girl with a handful of grandchildren for her.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
maniac
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WOW !!! so much advice. I beleave that the issue was the size of his hands and what he could load.

cajuninms,

If you want to do a final load and you feel that you hands are too small, then you could do you cups and balls routine sitting down. Doing a Cup load sitting down does not require palming the ball.

If you must perform standing up, then leave your hand in your pocket, tap you pocket with your wand and the cup turn pickup the cup at the same time bring your hand out with the load and move the cup over it, and PUT IT DOWN. This will work....even if the load is to big for your hand


Good Luck and Good MAGIC...
Larry Davidson
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Check out Scott Alexander's new DVD, 10 O'Clock Show. It contains a very clever cup and ball type of routine using nothing but final loads. Notice that I said type because it doesn't actually use a cup or a ball but it's the equivalent of a one cup routine, and you have much more cover than you'd have with a cup so the size of your hands is entirely irrelevant!

Larry D.
Kent Wong
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Using final loads is not so much a matter of being able to palm large objects as it is a matter of being able to redirect attention while you are making the final loads. You may want to take a look at some of the innovative ideas that Tommy Wonder has on the cups and balls (check out Books of Wonder). His final loads are actually on the table the whole time!

As for whether they are absolutely necessary in a cups and balls routine, I would say they are. Otherwise, there really is no strong finish to the routine.
"Believing is Seeing"
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Michael Seay
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Ken Brooke's 3 cup routine from Routined Manipulation, uses one load, appearing under the stacked set of cups. Only one BIG load to worry about storing and loading. Anyone use this kind of ending?
Magicmaven
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It is all practice. I started palming things left and right since I was 8 years old.

For final loads, you don't necesarily need to palm anything, you just need to hold it in a natural concealed fashion. Keep practicing. I am 15, and I just loaded 4 tennis balls is cups that barely could fit.I had people all around me. Try learning a little misdirection. As long as everything goes with the flow, the audience should look where you tell/prompt them to look. Practice. that is all there is to it. As for palming cards, look at the Gamblers cop. In that palm, half the card is totally out in the open, but because it looks so natural and because I have practiced my angles with it for about a year now, no one can catch it.

Try not thinking about it as if you have to palm it, you merely have to hold it in a natural, consealed way.

I think that final loads are quite necessary for a Cups and Balls routine.

IMO
RS1963
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Michael Skinner at times would do the old Rub a Dub cups and balls routine. No final loads but a routine that worked for him. True maybe not many could take that ryming patter and make that work for them but it at least gives you an idea that not all cups and balls routines have to have a final load. As was said by Pete Biro do what works for you. If final loads don't work don't use them. It is not a rule that final loads have to be used. It never has been a rule and it never will be.
Glenn Godsey
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Quote:
On 2004-04-10 08:24, drwilson wrote:
Part of the fun of the final loads, if you are using larger cups, is that they are objects far too large to be concealed in the hand. When they appear, the idea that you could have put them there with everyone watching seems to be an impossible explanation. Therefore, they appeared magically.

Yours,

Paul

Paul hit the nail on the head. The whole point to a cups or a cup routine is the surprise appearance of large objects. To the spectator, this is not a "load" - it is an impossible appearance. It seems (if well done) that there is no possible way that the magician could have put the large objects there with everyone watching. Don Alan, the first close-up table magician to appear on the Tonight Show blew everyone's minds and his entire act was based around the production of large heavy objects under cups, under hats and under bowls.
In table magic, it is the most magical thing you can do for a layman. To the layman, the small balls in the 3 cups or in the chop cup are just a rather boring preliminary to the shocking and inexplicable surprise!

Best regards,
Glenn Godsey
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2005-03-20 12:57, Magicmaven wrote:

For final loads, you don't necesarily need to palm anything, you just need to hold it in a natural concealed fashion. Keep practicing. I am 15, and I just loaded 4 tennis balls is cups that barely could fit.I had people all around me. Try learning a little misdirection. As long as everything goes with the flow, the audience should look where you tell/prompt them to look. Practice. that is all there is to it. As for palming cards, look at the Gamblers cop. In that palm, half the card is totally out in the open, but because it looks so natural and because I have practiced my angles with it for about a year now, no one can catch it.

Try not thinking about it as if you have to palm it, you merely have to hold it in a natural, consealed way.

These are wise words, indeed. In fact, when I do the loading sequence on the chop cup routine -- which Magicmaven witnessed as close as I let anyone get to it -- that was exactly what I was doing. I use three real 2 1/4 inch billiard balls. The only pressure on the ball is with the ring finger. The other fingers are completely relaxed. The hand is positioned in such a way that the index and thumb cover any possible flash of the ball. The fingers curve in such a way that the hand looks reasonably natural.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Magicmaven
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And you executed that beautifully Bill!
Bill Palmer
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Thanks! Flattery will get you everywhere!
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
BlackShadow
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I don't think you need to do final loads in the classical sense, but it finishes the whole routine nicely if you do something different at the end. Most well thought through small object manipulation finishes on this kind of climax. eg A jumbo coin, a shower of coins, jumbo cards, or making all the cards vanish.

The production of large round objects at the climax of a cups routine has become overdone. Liquids, sand, salt or silks strike me as more varied items. Or what about making the cups disappear instantly at the very end. This can actually be done after the production of whatever else you are doing.(method same as vanishing glass/bowl of water etc)
Pete Biro
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Nothing is NECESSARY... but the surprise ending of the cups and balls is as good a finish as you can imagine.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2005-03-26 16:05, BlackShadow wrote:
The production of large round objects at the climax of a cups routine has become overdone. Liquids, sand, salt or silks strike me as more varied items. Or what about making the cups disappear instantly at the very end. This can actually be done after the production of whatever else you are doing.(method same as vanishing glass/bowl of water etc)

Maybe we, as magicians, see this as overdone, but I don't think the layman does. Sometime when you are strolling around, take a clipboard with you and act as if you are taking a poll. Just see how many people have actually ever SEEN a cups and balls worker.

I, for one, would be curious to know what percentage of a representative group that was.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Werner G. Seitz
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It is correct, we are talking about ppl who probably never ever have seen a magician, or if they have, this was in their youth, 30 years or so back..
So seeing the wonders will give them the threat of their lifetime, sometimes...
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Whit Haydn
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I always want to be the first guy someone saw doing one of the classics.

I would want the very first cup and ball worker someone ever sees to be me.
T. Joseph O'Malley
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I remember the first cups and balls routine I ever saw.

This was before I started reading and learning about magic, a few years back.
It was performed by a Toronto street performer.
It was the Vernon routine, I believe, but with a pepper squash loaded under his hat at the end.

He absolutely floored me. I was completely baffled and mystified. I walked over and put $40 in his hat. I stuck around and watched the act a few more times throughout the day and loved it.

I would not say that the production of large round objects has become overdone. It earned that man $40 from my wallet.

Final loads may not be necessary, but I remember that I was impressed by the routine prior to seeing the final loads, and when they began to appear under the cups, my jaw hit the floor. I can understand why Whit mentions that he wants to be the first magician someone sees perform the cups and balls, because when you see a classic like this performed well, you NEVER forget it.
tjo'
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