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Bob G
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Claudio kindly referred me to this thread in reply to a question I asked about setting up for Nick Trost's "Intuition." One way to set up would be to (1) first sort the second deck into NDO, and then (2) go through the first deck as a guide to set up the second deck. Since the second deck is already sorted (and perhaps laid out on the table), the work shouldn't be too bad. But still, I'm wondering if people have ideas about how to accomplish Step 2 efficiently.


Thanks,


Bob
Claudio
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Bob, do you do mem work?

But even if you don't, mark the back of a deck in memdeck order that you mean to study in the future. The marks must be visible only to you, of course, by that I mean not so obvious that laypeople would spot them. There are a lot of marking systems around. Mark the second deck in reverse order. From now on, you'll be able to setup both packets in preparation for the Nick Trost effect in a matter of minutes and without thinking, using a radix sort. The more you use this technique the faster it'll be. As well, as you suggested, keeping one deck in order would be a good idea.

The advantage of a marked deck is that the NT effect can be performed entirely hands off, as you have the necessary information immediately.

Plus, I believe a couple of books noted in this thread, will help you to set up the order under the guise of an effect.

Anyway, this is one way, others will no doubt think of more.
Bob G
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Hi Claudio,


I don't do mem work (though of course eventually I want to do *everything* in magic Smile ). I'll check into marking systems, and in particular the books in the other thread.


Thanks,


Bob
Bob G
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Landmark,


Your method is appealing and sounds easy (in principle -- it will be good practice to upjog and entire half of the deck and pull out only those cads!). So I thought I'd start with your method before trying some of ideas, such as Claudio's that require more thought. But I have a question: How *does* one organize a bridge hand? I did a bit of web searching before asking this and I got lots of conflicting opinions and technical stuff. Would you mind briefly describing your own method for getting each suit into numerical order?



Thanks,


Bob
landmark
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It's nothing very special. Let's see if I can explain for Bicycle NDO.

Suppose you are holding the deck in left hand, facing you with the 13 unsorted spades at the bottom. Spread the 13 cards out in a fan so that you can see all the pips. Now with your right hand, fingers pointing down, palm facing you, thumb closest to your body, pick out the KS from above; next scan the cards and pick out the QS on top of that, then the JS and so on up until the AS is on the face of the packet. Then just cut those to the top of the pack, and continue the same with the diamonds and the rest of the suits.
Bob G
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OK, that makes sense. Thanks!
Bob G
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Hi landmark,


Just wanted you to know that your method worked really well for me. I thought you'd want to know that, yes, your method *was* useful to someone. Here's what I wrote on the thread in which I asked for an efficient way to arrange for Trost's Intuition:


I'm reporting back, here. Thanks to everyone for their ideas. Here's what I did; I'm sure it isn't the most efficient method, but it seems plenty good enough for my purposes.


I used landmark's technique to physically arrange one deck into new deck order. Then I spread the cards on the table.


Then I spread the cards in the other, well-shuffled, deck, so that one spread was "above" the other, i. e., I the two spreads were parallel with one closer to me than the other.


From there it was quite easy to arrange the NDO cards into a gradually growing deck that was in reverse order to the shuffled deck. I was pleased to discover that it was easy and natural to put the NDO deck into *reverse* order: I just went from the face of the shuffled spread toward the back, choose NDO cards that matched the shuffled cards, kept them face-up, and put each new card face-up card on top of the previously chosen cards. (I hope that made sense! Clarification on request.)


I'm guessing the whole thing took me 10-15 minutes, though I didn't time myself. But considering that this was my first time, and that I didn't follow all of landmark's instructions, I was happy with the result. If I can get the time down to five - or even ten - minutes, I'll be happy. That doesn't seem like too much time to spend preparing what's reputed to be a really effective trick.
PressureFan
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I favor in-hands methods like the Radix Sort for getting a deck into NDO or cyclical stack.

With "Card Setting" I can get the deck into NDO in just under two minutes
See; Shoot Ogawa Busters 3
Shoot also teaches how to use Card Setting to put the deck into Si Stebbins order with two additional Faro Shuffles, all in-hands.

PressureFan
stickmondoo
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I just separate my stack into first half second half then if I am using a table I fan each half and remove cards laying them on the table in order. I just timed myself and it took 1 min 50 seconds. If no table I separate into half stacks again and just run through each half placing cards on the face as I come to them. This way without the table took 2 min 20 seconds. Doing it this way one thing that helps to speed it up is look for the next two cards at the same time. If you find the second first just put it on the face then slip the first card under it when you come to it. This way you always find at least two cards with each run through of the half stack.
Melephin
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I recommend to set up the deck always as if it were in front of the audience. Additional practice. If you can do it fast and casual in front of the audience, you're ready for a lot of great "impromptu" card magic.
AntonF
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I use an idea, that belongs to Nikola, and I have read it in Tamariz’s book. This is done in front of the audience as part of your tricks. You !@#$e three cards to three spectators, that are the positions 50, 51 and 52 of the stack. The deck is shuffled by the spectators and you say you can name every single cards in the deck, except the three selections, but in a “random” order, and without repeat any card and even blindfolded. You give one third of a deck to 3 spectators, and they make a fan towards his faces and as the magician name the cards, are put on the table. This must be done in an increasing rhythm to cause the spectators can not follow you as a comic situation. If this is done correctly, is a great trick, and you can follow your routines. In the end, you reveal the three selections too...
[...] The passion culminates in the professional. He would rather play than eat. Winning is not his sole delight.[...] there is but one pleasure in life better than winning, that is, in making the hazard...
WayneBurrows
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The radix idea described here is essentially a sort based on the decimal number system.

You can do similar sorts in other bases, for example two or four.

In a decimal based sort you need only two passes (because 10^2 > 52 cards in the deck). In a binary based sort you need six passes because 2^6 = 64 > 52 (and 2^5 = 32 < 52) - a little sloppiness with < and > rather than less than or equal to etc as appropriate but you can work it out.

Six passes is a lot but it means you can do it in the hand with an angle separation or similar. Sorted into suits and in numerical order you can do this with four passes for numerical order and then one pass into red/black and finally one pass into the suits.

The procedure is:

1st pass: separate the odds and evens.

2nd pass: separate A,2,5,6,9,10,K into one group and 3,4,7,8,J,Q into another.

3rd pass: separate A,2,3,4,9,10,J,Q into one group and 5,6,7,8,K into another.

4th pass: separate A,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 into one group and 9,10,J,Q,K into another.

Then into colours and suits as described above.

You need to be careful of the order you collect the two groups. If you do an angle separation you are reversing the order of the cards each pass. Then on the third pass you need to collect the two groups in the opposite order to how I have written so 5,6,7,8,K is the first group.

If you can do something similar to an angle separation in the hands but separate into four groups on each pass then you can do this in two passes plus one pass for the suits.

1st pass: 1st group 1,5,9,K 2nd group 2,6,10 3rd group 3,7,J 4th group 4,8,Q

2nd pass: 1st group 1,2,3,4 2nd group 5,6,7,8 3rd group 9,10,J,Q 4th group K

Then one pass for the suits.

It should be obvious with a little experimentation the order you need to collect the cards after the first pass to achieve what you want after the second (and third) pass.
Bob G
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Hi folks,


For some reason I wasn't notified about the five posts prior to the one I'm writing now until today. So, a belated thanks to you all!


Wayne, I'm intrigued by your method; easy to remember and it sounds pretty efficient to my untutored ear. One question: What is an "angle separation"?


Thanks,


Bob
WayneBurrows
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I think angle separation is the name of what Lennart Green does to separate the cards into two groups under the guise of just looking through the cards and putting them one at a time into your other hand and then strip them out into the two groups. Harry Lorayne has a similar method that he calls the Great Divide that he claims is better and often disputes Lennart Green origination.

See this thread for example:

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......&forum=2
WayneBurrows
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Other thoughts:

1. You can use the angle separation or great divide methods as practice of those techniques

2. I described the method for sorting into suits but you can sort direction into a stack order by the same method. Using a binary sort you would sort

i/ into two groups based on equivalence modulo 2 (odds and evens)

ii/ into two groups based on equivalence modulo 4 (1 and 2 in one group and 3 and 4=0 in the other group)

iii/ into two groups based on equivalence modulo 8 (1,2,3,4) and (0,5,6,7) in the two groups

iv/ into two groups based on equivalence modulo 16 (1-8) and (0,9-15)

v/ into two groups based on equivalence modulo 32 (1-16) and (0,17-31)

vi/ into two groups based on equivalence modulo 64 (1-32) and (33-52)

3. If you can't do a 4-separation in the hands then you could do it on the table.

a/ If you are sorting into suits then two of these will get you into numeric order then you can do two binary sorts in the hands to sort into suits.

4. If you want new deck order then you can reverse the two appropriate suits at the end of this (or do something more complicated on the way where spades and diamonds were sorted in one order and hearts and clubs in the reverse order)
Bob G
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For my current purposes (setting up for Nick Trost's Intuition by putting a deck in NDO into the reverse order of another, well-shuffled deck), using a table would be fine. I gather that angle separation/great divide are for use in the hands. On looking at your 4-pass method, I'm wondering whether there's a pattern to the second pass?
Harry Lorayne
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Angle Separation is a complete out-and-out rip-off of my THE GREAT DIVIDE. I don't "claim," Wayne - IT IS.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Alex Carantońa
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Quote:
On Jul 17, 2019, WayneBurrows wrote:
The radix idea described here is essentially a sort based on the decimal number system.

You can do similar sorts in other bases, for example two or four.

In a decimal based sort you need only two passes (because 10^2 > 52 cards in the deck). In a binary based sort you need six passes because 2^6 = 64 > 52 (and 2^5 = 32 < 52) - a little sloppiness with < and > rather than less than or equal to etc as appropriate but you can work it out.

Six passes is a lot but it means you can do it in the hand with an angle separation or similar. Sorted into suits and in numerical order you can do this with four passes for numerical order and then one pass into red/black and finally one pass into the suits.

The procedure is:

1st pass: separate the odds and evens.

2nd pass: separate A,2,5,6,9,10,K into one group and 3,4,7,8,J,Q into another.

3rd pass: separate A,2,3,4,9,10,J,Q into one group and 5,6,7,8,K into another.

4th pass: separate A,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 into one group and 9,10,J,Q,K into another.

Then into colours and suits as described above.

You need to be careful of the order you collect the two groups. If you do an angle separation you are reversing the order of the cards each pass. Then on the third pass you need to collect the two groups in the opposite order to how I have written so 5,6,7,8,K is the first group.

If you can do something similar to an angle separation in the hands but separate into four groups on each pass then you can do this in two passes plus one pass for the suits.

1st pass: 1st group 1,5,9,K 2nd group 2,6,10 3rd group 3,7,J 4th group 4,8,Q

2nd pass: 1st group 1,2,3,4 2nd group 5,6,7,8 3rd group 9,10,J,Q 4th group K

Then one pass for the suits.

It should be obvious with a little experimentation the order you need to collect the cards after the first pass to achieve what you want after the second (and third) pass.


Just brilliant. For anyone out there interested in in-hand separations, check out Karl Hein's ideas on this. He's got a beautiful routine called 3 degrees of separation.

Highly recommended.

P.S: As the already-enormous amount of MDs grow, they all seem to be designed to be NDO-friendly, so I am getting more and more used to going through a NDO sorting process followed by the getting into stack. It is quite handy, and a great way of practicing.
WayneBurrows
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Harry, I said you claimed it is better. I am sorry I do not know. I have seen Lennart Green's separation taught. I have not seen yours.

About whether Lennart Green's separation is original I said that you dispute this. I have read what you say about this but I have not heard Lennart Green's take on what he has done and what inspired him.

Really though separating cards into two (or more) groups through a form of jogging is not really groundbreaking technique that is worth arguing over in my view.
WayneBurrows
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Quote:
On Jul 22, 2019, Alex Carantońa wrote:

Just brilliant. For anyone out there interested in in-hand separations, check out Karl Hein's ideas on this. He's got a beautiful routine called 3 degrees of separation.

Highly recommended.

P.S: As the already-enormous amount of MDs grow, they all seem to be designed to be NDO-friendly, so I am getting more and more used to going through a NDO sorting process followed by the getting into stack. It is quite handy, and a great way of practicing.


Thanks Alex. I will check out your recommendations.
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