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AMcD
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Why not? Talking about myself here, but I think 2 is really the bare minimum. In fact in most cases we needed 3...
tommy
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Controlling one card is essentially the only thing we have found practical and safe in a professional poker game. The amount of edge it gave us was greater in the hands of the professional player who played it. I mean I am not a professional player and the edge would not have been so good if I had been the player rather than the dealer.

In amateur games we have done a little more because the procedures and circumstances were different.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
AMcD
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Frankly, stacking 2 cards has never been such a great trouble for me...
tommy
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Staking a pair in Omaha, which is the cash game of choice here, is no great advantage anyway. If staking a pair in Holden undetectably while at the same conforming to the normal procedures of professional game has never been such a great trouble for you, then you ought to be a multimillionaire.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
TH10111
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The amount of value that can be extracted from a given edge is certainly proportional to the players skill at playing the game, but maximising the illicit edge that can be gained is proportional to the players ability to cheat undetected.

A good player should be able to get the money with little to no advantage, but if they can increase that advantage with no additional risk, why wouldn't they?
AMcD
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@tommy

I'm fed up of that kind of talking, really. You "professionals" bore me with your procedures that nobody (supposedly) can beat and your games where millions can be made!

I played AMATEURS games. Is that word hard to get? We din't play for millions. But we used 3 or 4 riffles, a both hands released cut, cut cards, plastic decks, etc. The main difference with your professional world is the lack of running cut, hardly seen in our games and the number of riffles, which is not technically limited (you can see 4 or even 5 riffles). For the rest, what do you think, that amateurs players are clowns? There is very little difference with you superior world you know, players are not allowed to play with the dead wood, the dealer is not allowed to hold the deck during a round, the player at the right of the dealer cuts, the one at his left deals. Very often we used 2 decks simultaneously too. Any player can re-shuffle the deck (and they do, trust me), etc.

The problem with Omaha is the huge number of cards needed if you want to stack 3 cards, which requires a faro in order to make it doable. I admit I wouldn't probably try a faro in professional environment, but for 2 cards it's the same than stacking for Hold'em, Razz or 7-Stud. I showed my technique to a few guys working for security in casinos. I suppose it's enough a professional environment for you? And ALL said that, unfortunately for them, it would probably beat them in most of the cases.

Why don't you guys open a forum dedicated to so-called "PROFESSIONALS"?
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 7, 2017, AMcD wrote:

@tommy

I'm fed up of that kind of talking, really. You "professionals" bore me with your procedures that nobody (supposedly) can beat and your games where millions can be made!

I played AMATEURS games. Is that word hard to get?... The main difference with your professional world is the lack of running cut, hardly seen in our games and the number of riffles, which is not technically limited (you can see 4 or even 5 riffles). For the rest, what do you think, that amateurs players are clowns?...

The problem with Omaha is the huge number of cards needed if you want to stack 3 cards...

I showed my technique to a few guys working for security in casinos. I suppose it's enough a professional environment for you? And ALL said that, unfortunately for them, it would probably beat them in most of the cases.

Why don't you guys open a forum dedicated to so-called "PROFESSIONALS"?


Working hustlers in "professional" games (poker games in casinos and professionally run card rooms) rarely make millions. Of course, one would have to qualify the word, "professionals." Are we talking about well-known professional players who apparently or for the most part play "on the square," appear on TV, win tournaments, write books and make videos, or are we talking about working hustlers or "cheats" who beat professional games for a living?

Working hustlers in professional poker games are really playing a grind for the most part, with exceptions of course. They can make good money, this is how they make their living, in whole or in part, it pays the rent, buys food and gives them a decent live style. Not lavish, but decent. These guys would LOVE to play in private big stake games, if only they could find them and if only they could get invited to the games. For the most part, cheating at poker in a "professional" casino environment would not use the methods talked about and bandied around on this forum. For really professional games, it is simply not done that way for the most part. (Of course, there can always be an exception here or there.) It does matter how sharp or dumb surveillance is. if you are going up against the cameras, in general you must use different methods other than pure sleight of hand because if suspected they will just keep playing the tape back over and over again until they figure out what happened.

As far as security guards go, they are usually not conversant with card table moves as they are basically cops employed by the casino to arrest, keep the order, quell the unruly and protect the house and patrons.

I should also add that a "move" done as a demonstration, in singularity without the entirety of all the elements of the play being incorporated, without the danger and consequences of being caught and without real money being ventured is little more than an entertainment, amusement or instruction, especially if the observer has been informed as to what is being attempted. It is basically a magic trick of sorts or a demonstration of skill or technique, not of courage, grift sense or accomplished deception under fire and is different from going for or getting the money.

Private games, whether easy or difficult to beat are a completely different world. I would LOVE to find a good private game. I played in them years ago and they were great, especially steer games. Mostly coolers at the right time and in some games simply stacking the cards worked very well. Coolers were the best though regardless of what Erdnase said. Rules in private games vary greatly but it doesn't matter what the rules are, either strict or lax. You just have to find the weakness or angle to exploit. One angle is usually enough to get the job done in many games and quite frankly it is often not hard to find or to do.

Some amateur player ARE clowns, a small number are somewhat sharp especially when it comes to common everyday moves and methods. But moves and methods are only a small part of the overall picture...and there always is a paddle to beat someone's ass, even mine. You just have to know what it is in the situation you are playing and have the guts and grift sense to use it. In my opinion, although professional or amateur hustlers are considered by some to be "heroes" to praise or emulate, for the most part it is a pretty crappy and dirty way to make a living and some of them (not all), are just useless bums.

Finally, (did Cag say "finally") rather than a Professional forum, can we setup up one I could qualify for, like Old Maid Pros or perhaps a Monopoly Experts BB. I'd like that.

The rest of this stuff is deep and too serious for me. Smile
Dannydoyle
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I am sorry if that ruffled a feather. I seriously didn't mean to.

I am only saying that knowing the position of just one card is a huge advantage, and plenty to get the money.

AMcD sorry.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Cagliostro
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I remember Jackie Newton, now deceased, a very capable hustler back in the day of single deck BJ games and card counting used to play the location of one single card very effectively. What he would do is place a somewhat strong bend in one of the fives, that is all. If the house found it, they would simply attribute it to an accidental bend as why woldl some one bend a five, and only one card and what good would it do. Well for Jackie it was a big help.

First of all, knowing where the five was in the deck enabled him to adjust his count right off the top, For example, if the five was say halfway down in the deck, he knew he had a one-half percent the best of it right off the top. That percentage increased as the deck depleted. If he nailed the burn or bottom card, he could have as much as 1.5% off the top. There were other advantages that accrued based upon that knowledge but we will leave it at that.

Did he make millions from knowing that one thing. Of course not. But he played for big numbers and over the course of time made very significant money playing the count and adding other little advantages he could obtain.

I think most would be amazed to see a big play and try to figure out what was happening. I would suggest the play would be different than most would think or expect. Common well know sleight of hand moves just don't cut it at the higher levels and for the bigger plays for the most part. Once again, there can always be an exception here or there, but not usually.
AMcD
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@Dannydoyle

No worries. You should know that everything here is a possible starting point for endless debates. Sometimes, some are very interesting.

Obviously, knowing one card can provide a tremendous advantage in games like BJ. But, in my mind, I always think about Hold'Em. My fault. In games like HE, well, of course you can kill one card and get some advantage out of it. But, out of the blue, I wouldn't bet that knowing one card gives a terrific edge for such games. Of course, I should do some computations before saying that. I just have no time for it.
AMcD
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This is video #3!

A few table one-riffle stacks. Note that I don't go fast, I try to have a smooth pace instead:

http://www.arnoldmcdonald.org/code/publi......=6500003 (64.4mb)
Cagliostro
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Very masterful Arnold. I can't do that...but then again I don't have to.

Nice work as usual.
AMcD
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Thanks Cag.

I think I'm gonna film new Faro videos for the next time and post them here. I don't know where I left the former ones, but it's OK, I can do Faros when I want Smile.
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That was bloody excellent Arnold.
Smooth, and unless I've lost my vision - there were zero edits in your clip.

You hit every one!
Mr. Bones
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MarcoLostSomething
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Nice! I can't do that either!
Claudio
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Very smooth indeed!

One question: do you riffle stack by feel alone, or do you look at the deck? Just curious.
tommy
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Thank you kindly, that was a very interesting “move” done as a demonstration, in singularity without the entirety of all the elements of the play being incorporated, without the danger and consequences of being caught and without real money being ventured which was little more than an entertainment, amusement or instruction, especially as the observer had been informed as to what is being attempted. Which was basically a magic trick of sorts or a demonstration of skill or technique, not of courage, grift sense or accomplished deception under fire and is different from going for or getting the money. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
AMcD
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Thanks my friends.

@Bones

Editing... The plague of our times Smile. When you see a world champion of Magic editing his videos... Not to mention Youtube, with thousands of faked videos. I more and more incorporate a stopwatch in my videos, in order to avoid suspicion as much as possible. I also tend to repeat the moves 2 or 3 times. Faking, editing for claiming you do something that you can't is something going above my brain cells. Well, it's 2017.

@Claudio

For normal riffle stacking and for holding back 1, 2, 3 or 4 cards, I hardly look. For 5, 6 I think I take a look, 75% of the time Smile. For 7+ 100% of the time. For split stacking, above 4 I take a look almost every time.

@tommy

I'm just showing a drill. Even if it's little more than an entertainment it's still far much more than what you have ever shown here, basically nothing. At all.
Claudio
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Thanks AMcD. So do I look when I retain more than 6 cards as the difference between 7 or 8 cards is very hard to tell, for me that is. I am not as fluid as you though.

I believe Tommy was paying you a compliment by parodying Cag's style and favourite pet subject Smile

We might all become a bit defensive on this board.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Oct 11, 2017, tommy wrote:
Thank you kindly, that was a very interesting "move" done as a demonstration, in singularity without the entirety of all the elements of the play being incorporated, without the danger and consequences of being caught and without real money being ventured which was little more than an entertainment, amusement or instruction, especially as the observer had been informed as to what is being attempted. Which was basically a magic trick of sorts or a demonstration of skill or technique, not of courage, grift sense or accomplished deception under fire and is different from going for or getting the money. Smile


@Tommy: If you are going to use my brilliantly styled and crafted prose, presumable out of admiration, at least put them in quotations, cite the authorship and do so without editing my pristine perfection. Smile

What do they say about imitation...the sincerest form of flattery??? Smile
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